# Blacks overwhelmingly against gay marriage - Why such hypocrisy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658 "2009-07-02T02:28:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/81 "2009-07-02T17:36:10Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Without even bringing the silly Black vs Gay topic of this thread into this discussion, there is a big difference between the experiences of people who belong to a historically oppressed visible minority vs those who belong to a historically oppressed non-visible minority. A non-visible minority does have the power to choose if/when they want make themself visible depending on any given situation. This is a power visible minorities don’t have. Yes, this is obviously true. I agree totally that the “my oppression is bigger than your oppression” game is childish and non-productive. What I object to about what my black co-worker said is the implication that being able to be non-visible excused or mitigated the oppression of the gay co-worker, who after all was just trying to sympathize, not compare or dismiss the other guy’s problems. “You can hide,” while true, is asking that other person to accept their oppression by stifling and covering their identity. I don’t think that’s an acceptable response to bigotry, do you? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/82 "2009-07-02T18:00:48Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Yes, this is obviously true. I agree totally that the “my oppression is bigger than your oppression” game is childish and non-productive. Agreed > [@](#): > > What I object to about what my black co-worker said is the implication that being able to be non-visible excused or mitigated the oppression of the gay co-worker, who after all was just trying to sympathize, not compare or dismiss the other guy’s problems. I wouldn’t be so quick as to draw that as his implication (however, I was not privy to the conversation). > [@](#): > > “You can hide,” while true, is asking that other person to accept their oppression by stifling and covering their identity. I don’t think that’s an acceptable response to bigotry, do you? I don’t think pointing out, the accepted fact, that a non-visible minority CAN “hide” means the same as a non-visible minority SHOULD BE FORCED to “hide.” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/83 "2009-07-02T18:04:38Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > So, getting back to the OP, let’s just ensure we’re clear. You believe most black people are dishonest? In **Der Trihs** ’s defense, he may be extrapolating from his exposure to me, as I am a known jackass. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/84 "2009-07-02T18:17:37Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I don’t think pointing out, the accepted fact, that a non-visible minority CAN “hide” means the same as a non-visible minority SHOULD BE FORCED to “hide.” The implication was, if you don’t want to be oppressed, go hide. My black co-worker was saying that the gay guy was choosing to be oppressed by expressing his identity, while he, as a black man, could not choose the same. While this is empirically true, it’s rather dismissive and cavalier about gay people’s oppression-- it’s definitely playing the “my oppression is bigger than your oppression” game, which we have both agreed is childish and alienates people. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/85 "2009-07-02T18:21:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it doesn’t because that claim is not only factually wrong, but is a clear denial of human nature. I agree with you in part, but I think you are denying human nature also. Most of us wish to believe that our accomplishments are due to our own effort, not from being blessed with good genes. The heterosexual moralist can pat himself on the back for making the “choice” to be straight. This isn’t limited to sexuality - I’m sure you’ve seen people claim that all a poor person has to to to bet a $100K a year job is to study and work a bit harder, and that the only reason people got taken in by subprime mortgages was that they were too lazy to read the documents. These people can at least see skin color is not a choice, but don’t want to see that sexuality isn’t a choice. It’s much easier for them to run down those less fortunate than themselves for being stupid and lazy - which means they have no moral obligation to help. If gays chose to go against God’s will, then they also have no moral obligation to be tolerant. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/86 "2009-07-02T18:22:05Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > The implication was, if you don’t want to be oppressed, go hide. My black co-worker was saying that the gay guy was choosing to be oppressed by expressing his identity, while he, as a black man, could not choose the same. While this is empirically true, it’s rather dismissive and cavalier about gay people’s oppression-- it’s definitely playing the “my oppression is bigger than your oppression” game, which we have both agreed is childish and alienates people. While I have no problem with gay marriage and might in fact take advantage of it if I were single and Taye Diggs were gay, I might point out there’s some historical reasons for black persons being uncomfortable with ostensible minorities who can hide their otherness. People who can pass as members of the ruling class are not in the same boat as people who cannot (though they have different problems). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/87 "2009-07-02T18:23:46Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Agreed I wouldn’t be so quick as to draw that as his implication (however, I was not privy to the conversation). I don’t think pointing out, the accepted fact, that a non-visible minority CAN “hide” means the same as a non-visible minority SHOULD BE FORCED to “hide.” I assume that those who think gays should hide also see no problem in Christians having to hide their faith in countries ruled by Islamic law. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/88 "2009-07-02T18:28:19Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Well, first remember what **Der Trihs** ’s opinion of “religious people” is. > > But second, a quite large proportion of “religious people” do **not** “consider homosexuiality a choice” in any meaningful sense. Those who do are loud and mouthy, to be sure, but of 500,000 law abiding black people living in a metropolitan area, and three black men who knock over an all-night convenience store, guess which group makes the news? What do you think of the hypothesis that feelings about this issue is more strongly correlated to type of religious belief (more fundamentalist rather than liberal) than to skin color or ethnicity? My guess is that if you compared a group of black people to a group of white people with very similar religious views, you’d get a very similar level of anti-gay bias. Note I am **not** lumping all Christians together. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/89 "2009-07-02T18:30:21Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I personally know some gay black men. There is not anything inherent to being black that makes them dishonest. Likely there is some cultural factor at work that statistically would seem to make the group disposed against gay rights. > > I think the OP is looking for those reasons. Yes, this is correct. I am trying to sort out in my mind the reasons for the inconsistency here - pushing so hard for their own civil rights, but then actively seeking to deny civil rights to another minority group. It just does not compute to me, and I am struggling to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/90 "2009-07-02T18:31:54Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > While I have no problem with gay marriage and might in fact take advantage of it if I were single and Taye Diggs were gay, I might point out there’s some historical reasons for black persons being uncomfortable with ostensible minorities who can hide their otherness. People who can pass as members of the ruling class are not in the same boat as people who cannot (though they have different problems). As has already been pointed out, would we ever say to a Jew, “If you don’t like anti-Semitism, pretend you’re a Christian and voila! The problem of your oppression is solved! You bring it on yourself by telling people you’re a Jew, anyway.” No, we don’t say that, and being a Jew is on some level a choice. But it’s OK to say to a gay person, “Go back in the closet if you don’t like homophobia, and stop complaining about your oppression, since you’re choosing it.” At least, some people do think it’s OK, like my co-worker and the person who criticized Coretta Scott King for being pro-gay rights. No, gays and blacks are not in the same boat, but there are meaningful parallels between their struggles that should not be discounted out of hand, as they so often are. Those parallels are generally belittled or dismissed by this “it’s a choice/ you can hide” argument, which I find to be unfair and rather close minded. I don’t think the struggle has to be exactly the same to feel kinship and sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/91 "2009-07-02T18:36:02Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why is this thread about black people when the operative factor–which glaringly jumps out at you in the very title of the story you linked to–is not race but religion? I opened it up to blacks in general because of this item in the article: > [@](#): > > While surveys show African-Americans are the most liberal group on issues of social justice, they are the most conservative on gay rights. They voted overwhelmingly in favor of a ban on gay marriage in California, and nationwide, 2 out of 3 blacks oppose same-sex marriage. So it’s not just about religious blacks, it’s about the fact that although blacks in general are the most liberal on social justice, they are the most conservative on gay rights. This doesn’t compute - don’t social justice and gay rights go hand-in-hand? So why the glaring contradiction? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/92 "2009-07-02T18:43:06Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > In **Der Trihs** ’s defense, he may be extrapolating from his exposure to me, as I am a known jackass. Huh, I always thought you were Icelandic. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/93 "2009-07-02T18:43:23Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > :So it’s not just about religious blacks, it’s about the fact that although blacks in general are the most liberal on social justice, they are the most conservative on gay rights. > > This doesn’t compute - don’t social justice and gay rights go hand-in-hand? So why the glaring contradiction? You think black ministers can’t find Biblical justification for being both socially progressive and anti-gay? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/94 "2009-07-02T18:48:03Z")
> [@](#): > > “When I talk to most people of African descent, many of them are absolutely appalled by any comparison to the civil rights movement, simply because **we cannot take off our blackness** ,” Walker says. Dayum, Michael Jackson is barely cold and people have forgotten about him… ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/95 "2009-07-02T18:48:11Z")
> [@filling\_pages](#): > > . To suggest that gays and lesbians have had some sort of easy ride through US history and are now simply whining because they want to use the word “marriage” is to either be stone ignorant or willfully dishonest Who in this thread put forth the proposition that “gays and lesbians have had some sort of easy ride through US history”? I don’t see it. The point being made was not “they’ve had an easy ride”, it was that a lot of blacks don’t the road gays have traveled as being as difficult as the ones blacks have had to travel. Neat how you you took that post and twisted into such a nice strawman, though. Seems like someone who’d do that would be guilty of one of the two options you’ve put forth in evaluating others. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/96 "2009-07-02T18:52:46Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > I opened it up to blacks in general because of this item in the article:So it’s not just about religious blacks, it’s about the fact that although blacks in general are the most liberal on social justice, they are the most conservative on gay rights. But blacks are also more religious. The two most well-known black political figures (other than Obama) are Reverends Jackson and Sharpton, for petes sake. So I’m not understanding what there is to be confused about . Blacks may be more liberal on “social justice” isssues, but what does that even mean? In favor of more money for schools and milder drug sentencing? There’s no reason to expect these issues to have any bearing on feelings towards SSM. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/97 "2009-07-02T18:55:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Who in this thread put forth the proposition that “gays and lesbians have had some sort of easy ride through US history”? I don’t see it. The point being made was not “they’ve had an easy ride”, it was that a lot of blacks don’t the road gays have traveled as being as difficult as the ones blacks have had to travel. Neat how you you took that post and twisted into such a nice strawman, though. Seems like someone who’d do that would be guilty of one of the two options you’ve put forth in evaluating others. Ah yes, now we have an example of playing the “my oppression is bigger than your oppression” game. By all means, argue that it’s different, because that’s obviously true, but I don’t think anyone gains the moral high ground, or any sort of high ground at all, by saying “your road to civil rights is so much easier than mine.” I don’t think that view is supportable, or even worth making. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/98 "2009-07-02T19:14:44Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Ah yes, now we have an example of playing the “my oppression is bigger than your oppression” game. By all means, argue that it’s different, because that’s obviously true, but I don’t think anyone gains the moral high ground, or any sort of high ground at all, by saying “your road to civil rights is so much easier than mine.” I don’t think that view is supportable, or even worth making. Oh, I agree. But that is what is being done by some involved in the gay struggle for acceptance. I would not and have not raised the issue. And if I were fighting for gay equality I would not put forth that argument. Why? Simply because it is weak. Once put out there and evaluated, it makes that side look dumb and whiney. I think it is easier, cleaner, and more convincing to argue for equality for gays without bringing the struggle blacks have had into the debate. And if someone brings it into the debate, they are stuck with it being evaluated for what it is. If you (generic) seek to raise the black struggle because you find it similar to the gay struggle and want that to sway me (which you do, or else you wouldn’t have brought it up), you can’t expect me to NOT evaluate the degree to which they are similar. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/99 "2009-07-02T19:19:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, I agree. But that is what is being done by some involved in the gay struggle for acceptance. I would not and have not raised the issue. And if I were fighting for gay equality I would not put forth that argument. Why? Simply because it is weak. Once put out there and evaluated, it makes that side look dumb and whiney. I think it is easier, cleaner, and more convincing to argue for equality for gays without bringing the struggle blacks have had into the debate. And if someone brings it into the debate, they are stuck with it being evaluated for what it is. If you (generic) seek to raise the black struggle because you find it similar to the gay struggle and want that to sway me (which you do, or else you wouldn’t have brought it up), you can’t expect me to NOT evaluate the degree to which they are similar. I think they can be equated just fine. It is not to say, “My struggle is worse than your struggle.” It is to say, “We have both struggled as groups with civil rights. Certainly the details and issues are different but there should be some understanding between the two groups of what it is to struggle for acceptance in society.” I see nothing wrong with the second statement at all. ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/100 "2009-07-02T19:20:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, I agree. But that is what is being done by some involved in the gay struggle for acceptance. I would not and have not raised the issue. And if I were fighting for gay equality I would not put forth that argument. Why? Simply because it is weak. Once put out there and evaluated, it makes that side look dumb and whiney. I think it is easier, cleaner, and more convincing to argue for equality for gays without bringing the struggle blacks have had into the debate. And if someone brings it into the debate, they are stuck with it being evaluated for what it is. If you (generic) seek to raise the black struggle because you find it similar to the gay struggle and want that to sway me (which you do, or else you wouldn’t have brought it up), you can’t expect me to NOT evaluate the degree to which they are similar. While it is true that Blacks had to fight for a lot more of their rights to be validated, the comparison sticks in that there is at least one right that Blacks fought for and gays are fighting for right now. Insofar as THAT road is the same, the comparison is apt and the charge of hypocrisy/inconsistency is at least tenable at its face. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658.md?page=6)