# Blackwater should be shut down and prosecuted **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2008, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760 "2008-11-14T20:19:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/1 "2008-11-14T20:19:57Z")
> [@abcnews.com](#): > > A federal grand jury in North Carolina is investigating allegations the controversial private security firm Blackwater illegally shipped assault weapons and silencers to Iraq, hidden in large sacks of dog food, [ABCNews.com](http://ABCNews.com) has learned. [cite](http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=6254508&page=2) I have long thought that this organization was nothing but a glorified attempt to pass of killing and mayhem as a legitimate capitolist enterprise, and we’ve certainly seen other Blackwater incidents in the past that didn’t do anything to dissuade me. But this is like icing on the cake. How in the world does this group get to keep their $250 million contract, and why isn’t Erik Prince (and his fellow board members, execs, etc.) being brought up on criminal charges? Blackwater Worldwide should be shut down, it’s people prosecuted, and the US should repudiate any notion of legitimacy for mercenary organizations. If something needs doing in Iraq (or anywhere else, for that matter) WRT guns, explosives, or other munitions being used against people (i.e. in a war/combat setting), it should be the US military doing it not some bunch of well-paid thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/2 "2008-11-14T20:24:58Z")
The US military does training there, as do several other goverment agencies. They should be watched closely, but I don’t know that they should be entirely shut down. If the government had a problem with Blackwater they would have shut it down already. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/3 "2008-11-14T21:47:24Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [cite](http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=6254508&page=2) > > I have long thought that this organization was nothing but a glorified attempt to pass of killing and mayhem as a legitimate capitolist enterprise, and we’ve certainly seen other Blackwater incidents in the past that didn’t do anything to dissuade me. > > But this is like icing on the cake. How in the world does this group get to keep their $250 million contract, and why isn’t Erik Prince (and his fellow board members, execs, etc.) being brought up on criminal charges? > > Blackwater Worldwide should be shut down, it’s people prosecuted, and the US should repudiate any notion of legitimacy for mercenary organizations. If something needs doing in Iraq (or anywhere else, for that matter) WRT guns, explosives, or other munitions being used against people (i.e. in a war/combat setting), it should be the US military doing it not some bunch of well-paid thugs. Grand jury deliberations are supposed to be secret. There’s a reason for this. “Investigating allegations” sounds awful, but in fact the grand jury hasn’t made any determinations about anything. We have no idea what sort of evidence has been adduced in support of the claims. It’s precisely why grand jury proceedings are supposed to be secret. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/4 "2008-11-14T21:52:40Z")
I just checked my link again, and :smack: I linked to page 2 of the article. Here is the link to [page 1](http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=6254508&page=1). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/5 "2008-11-14T22:13:10Z")
Blackwater, presumably, as a contractor of the U.S. government, already can ship all the weapons and ammunition its employees might need into Iraq by legitimate channels. Or, heck, buy them locally, it’s probably cheaper. Why would they smuggle weapons into Iraq?! 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/6 "2008-11-14T22:24:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Blackwater, presumably, as a contractor of the U.S. government, already can ship all the weapons and ammunition its employees might need into Iraq by legitimate channels. Or, heck, buy them locally, it’s probably cheaper. Why would they smuggle weapons into Iraq?! 😕 from the [abcnews.com](http://abcnews.com) article: > [@](#): > > Under State Department rules, Blackwater is prohibited from using certain assault weapons and silencers in Iraq because they are considered “offensive” weapons inappropriate for Blackwater’s role as a private security firm protecting US diplomatic missions. Rules don’t seem to mean much to Blackwater, tho. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/7 "2008-11-14T22:49:26Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > from the [abcnews.com](http://abcnews.com) article: > > Rules don’t seem to mean much to Blackwater, tho. !!! So, what exactly is Blackwater **doing** in Iraq, that they think they need “certain assault weapons and silencers” that badly?! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/8 "2008-11-14T22:50:36Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Rules don’t seem to mean much to Blackwater, tho. Or to whoever leaked the details of the grand jury proceedings. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/9 "2008-11-14T22:53:34Z")
The “hidden in large sacks of dog food” doesn’t make any sense, either. Why would anybody be shipping dog food to Iraq? A bit for Embassy pets, perhaps, but not a lot. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/10 "2008-11-14T22:59:37Z")
Isn’t there some kind of agreement that’s coming up, and if it doesn’t come about, private contractors won’t be immune in Iraq? I think the U.S. is asking for things the Iraqis don’t want, and they’ve come to a kind of stalemate. From everything I’ve read, the Iraqis are really pissed off by the military contractors, more than by the real military. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/11 "2008-11-14T23:09:34Z")
If Blackwater (and similar companies based in other countries) did not exist, the companies doing reconstruction in Iraq would have to arm their own employees. Would you prefer the convoys and jobsites be guarded by professional ex-military men, or by random taxi drivers and construction workers? I would think that untrained men who have never known either military discipline or the horrors of war would be more reckless and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/12 "2008-11-14T23:20:20Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > If Blackwater (and similar companies based in other countries) did not exist, the companies doing reconstruction in Iraq would have to arm their own employees. Would you prefer the convoys and jobsites be guarded by professional ex-military men, or by random taxi drivers and construction workers? I would think that untrained men who have never known either military discipline or the horrors of war would be more reckless and dangerous. Is there some reason U.S. soldiers can’t be used for this? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/13 "2008-11-14T23:22:32Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > If Blackwater (and similar companies based in other countries) did not exist, the companies doing reconstruction in Iraq would have to arm their own employees. Would you prefer the convoys and jobsites be guarded by professional ex-military men, or by random taxi drivers and construction workers? I would think that untrained men who have never known either military discipline or the horrors of war would be more reckless and dangerous. Blackwater is notorious as a bunch of out of control, above the law thugs. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/14 "2008-11-14T23:23:22Z")
Under what jurisdiction would they be prosecuted; US or Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/15 "2008-11-14T23:26:01Z")
> [@chacoguy420](#): > > Under what jurisdiction would they be prosecuted; US or Iraq? Good question. In Iraq, they have immunity. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/16 "2008-11-14T23:30:33Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Is there some reason U.S. soldiers can’t be used for this? Not enough of them on the ground, I suppose, to protect foreign civilian contractors and do everything else they’ve got to do. Several generals advised Bush at the start of the war that it would take no less than 400,000 troops to police the country effectively. He ignored them and went in with less than half that number – 140,000, I believe – and the generals who gave that advice have since been cashiered. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/17 "2008-11-14T23:33:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Is there some reason U.S. soldiers can’t be used for this? Socialism, small government, etc. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/18 "2008-11-14T23:42:28Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Is there some reason U.S. soldiers can’t be used for this? It may be cheaper, because you don’t have to pay for their upkeep in peacetime. Or, it may ultimately be more expensive but we havn’t realized it yet because the cost-benefit analysis hasn’t been extensively looked at. Or, if you want to be a cynic, it may be because private military contractors have contributed substantially to presidential and congressional campaigns over the last ten years or so. [Private Military Companies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_military_company) ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/19 "2008-11-14T23:49:52Z")
Another: [Private Security Contractors in Iraq: Background, Legal Status and Other Issues](http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:iZI7eD0HJi4J:www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32419.pdf) [Same, but pdf version](http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32419.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/20 "2008-11-14T23:51:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The “hidden in large sacks of dog food” doesn’t make any sense, either. Why would anybody be shipping dog food to Iraq? A bit for Embassy pets, perhaps, but not a lot. Dude, seriously: read the article. > [@](#): > > They say the weapons were actually hidden inside large sacks of dog food, packaged at company headquarters in North Carolina and sent to Iraq for the company’s 20 bomb-sniffing dogs. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In Iraq, they have immunity. No they don’t. (bolding mine) > [@wiki](#): > > On September 23, 2007, the Iraqi government said that it expects to refer criminal charges to its courts in connection with a shooting involving Blackwater guards. However, on October 29, 2007, immunity from prosecution was granted by The U.S. State Department, delaying a criminal inquiry into the September 16 shootings of 17 Iraqi civilians. Immediately afterwards, the Iraqi government **approved a draft law to end any and all immunity for foreign military contractors in Iraq** , to overturn Order 17. The U.S. Department of Justice also said **any immunity deals offered to Blackwater employees were invalid, as the department that issued them had no authority to do so**. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760.md?page=2)