# Blackwater should be shut down and prosecuted **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2008, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760 "2008-11-14T20:19:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/21 "2008-11-14T23:58:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Or to whoever leaked the details of the grand jury proceedings. Does the fact that details of the GJ proceedings were leaked absolve Blackwater of culpability? Does it excuse their actions in this, or any other incident? Or are you just picking a nit to avoid the issue(s) of Blackwater’s actions? I’m more interested in a debate about the worth and and propriety of unchecked mercenaries employeed by the US Gov’t. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/22 "2008-11-15T00:02:38Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > If Blackwater (and similar companies based in other countries) did not exist, the companies doing reconstruction in Iraq would have to arm their own employees. Would you prefer the convoys and jobsites be guarded by professional ex-military men, or by random taxi drivers and construction workers? I would think that untrained men who have never known either military discipline or the horrors of war would be more reckless and dangerous. Agreed. Those of my acquaintance with personal experience of Blackwater have unanimously praised them as being highly professional and in a couple of instances for saving their butts in a tricky situation. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/23 "2008-11-15T00:08:48Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > If Blackwater (and similar companies based in other countries) did not exist, the companies doing reconstruction in Iraq would have to arm their own employees. Would you prefer the convoys and jobsites be guarded by professional ex-military men, or by random taxi drivers and construction workers? I would think that untrained men who have never known either military discipline or the horrors of war would be more reckless and dangerous. This isn’t actually very accurate. Those companies didn’t hire Blackwater, AFAIK. Blackwater was hired by the US Gov’t to provide security to diplomatic personnel. Let the companies hire their own mercenaries, if they feel they need to. And why would you assume that they would hire cab drivers, instead of ex-military mercs? That seems like a silly argument. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/24 "2008-11-15T00:19:12Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > If Blackwater (and similar companies based in other countries) did not exist, the companies doing reconstruction in Iraq would have to arm their own employees. Would you prefer the convoys and jobsites be guarded by professional ex-military men, or by random taxi drivers and construction workers? I would think that untrained men who have never known either military discipline or the horrors of war would be more reckless and dangerous. I would prefer the convoys and job sites be guarded by the Iraqi Army and the Iraqi Police Force we have spent so much time, effort, and money on training. ETA: Removed some offensive words. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/25 "2008-11-15T00:28:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The “hidden in large sacks of dog food” doesn’t make any sense, either. Why would anybody be shipping dog food to Iraq? A bit for Embassy pets, perhaps, but not a lot. Well, they needed to feed the dogs at Abu Ghraib. ---
**Author:** ![T\_SQUARE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@T\_SQUARE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T_SQUARE)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/26 "2008-11-15T00:58:36Z")
I can understand the government not wanting private firms using silencers, bad press and all, but I don’t understand why they can’t have M4s and radios. I guess I always thought they would have regular issue combat kit. What kind of rifle are they supposed to be using? It seems kind of strange to hire them to provide security and then tell them they have to use AR-15s or something. Surely they have at least mid-weight machine guns for checkpoint control, right? Perhaps the army is afraid someone will trade a machine gun to a shop keep or something and it will get into the wrong hands. Are they supposed to be leasing their weapons from the army then? Also, does anyone know how Blackwater is allowed to have select fire weapons in North Carolina? They could be pre-86 I guess, but I don’t think the M4 was around then. Or do private security firms like Blackwater count as law enforcement? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/27 "2008-11-15T20:15:58Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Does the fact that details of the GJ proceedings were leaked absolve Blackwater of culpability? Does it excuse their actions in this, or any other incident? No. But it assumes the truth of the allegations, which are – so far as I can see – completely unproven. In other words, you’ve seized upon a story that says, “The grand jury is investigating X,” and leapt instantly to the conclusion that X is true. (Just a wild speculation, but I bet if you read a story that said, "A federal grand jury is investigating ACORN for vote fraud, you’d be a bit more circumspect in your conclusions.) ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/28 "2008-11-16T21:24:26Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > I would think that untrained men who have never known either military discipline or the horrors of war would be more reckless and dangerous. Who do you think is gaurding military bases in Iraq? I’ll give you a hint: It’s not the US Military. It’s not a military at all. They’re random civilians from Uganda, mostly. Hell, I bet many of them were cab drivers, drunk homeless men, bakers, and who knows what else… > [@treis](#): > > Is there some reason U.S. soldiers can’t be used for this? Too expensive. Not enough soldiers. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Let the companies hire their own mercenaries, if they feel they need to. And why would you assume that they would hire cab drivers, instead of ex-military mercs? That seems like a silly argument. Cab drivers are less expensive. You see… the companies would not hire the mercs directly. The company would hire a merc corporation. _That_ merc corporation will take all the money from the company and (like a good corporation does) will do whatever it can to maximize profit. So the merc corporation will look like it’s some very awesome, high speed group. It’s founder will be a former SEAL or Green Beret or GSG9 or god knows what. So, that company contracting the merc corporation will expect to be getting a bunch of ex-military types. BUT, what the corporation will do is walk the streets of Uganda and go to some job fairs in third world countries and find employees who will stand outside of bases and pull security for 900 fucking dollars a month! They are given a short briefing and minimal instructions on their weapons. Then they are handed an AK47 and told where to stand for the next 12 hours. They have no training, no knowledge, no experience. Yet, this is who the US Governement and the US Tax Payers are paying to protect it’s military personnel. Yes people, this is who gaurds your soldier when he sleeps on a US Base. They’ll all be housed in some shotty ass billets where they’re packed in past max capacity. There they’ll leach off of legitamite soldier resources, their USO, their MWR, and countless other charitable goods and services ignorantly provided by generous Americans who think they’re supporting American servicemen. Welcome to the World of Government Contracted Security. It’s bordorline human trafficking in many ways. And, despite what you hear, it’s not all about ex-military Americans getting rich working for Blackwater, et al. It’s about companies like Triple Canopy, SOC SMG, and countless others providing the cheapest garbage they can round up in Africa, paying them NOTHING to gaurd American bases, treating their third world personnel like trash, refusing to provide for their morale or welfare (let the Army do it… they can leach off the soldiers) and all the while soaking up the profits. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/29 "2008-11-16T21:39:33Z")
If you think Blackwater does this without the knowledge of the President’s administration, you’re deluded. Go smoke a joint and watch ‘Lord of War’. All will be revealed. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/30 "2008-11-16T21:41:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > !!! So, what exactly is Blackwater **doing** in Iraq, that they think they need “certain assault weapons and silencers” that badly?! Assassinating people…duh. You don’t hire Blackwater to plant daisies and shine puppy’s noses. **pravnik** I think the benefit to hiring Blackwater is you can cut a lot of red tape that probably drives up costs. Also you can have things done more secretly than if you used American troops. Also, I think you’re right about it being cheaper because you do not have to pay for their general upkeep or pay them in between the contracts. Obviously somewhere in the cost benefit analysis it makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/31 "2008-11-16T21:44:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not enough of them on the ground, I suppose, to protect foreign civilian contractors and do everything else they’ve got to do. Several generals advised Bush at the start of the war that it would take no less than 400,000 troops to police the country effectively. He ignored them and went in with less than half that number – 140,000, I believe – and the generals who gave that advice have since been cashiered. Still it was accurate. 160,000 troops. 180.000 trained Iraqis,160,000 mercinaries and contractors. If they would have just listened to the pros. 400,000 plus to do the job. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/32 "2008-11-16T21:48:00Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Who do you think is gaurding military bases in Iraq? I’ll give you a hint: It’s not the US Military. It’s not a military at all. They’re random civilians from Uganda, mostly. Hell, I bet many of them were cab drivers, drunk homeless men, bakers, and who knows what else… > > Too expensive. Not enough soldiers. > > Cab drivers are less expensive. You see… the companies would not hire the mercs directly. The company would hire a merc corporation. _That_ merc corporation will take all the money from the company and (like a good corporation does) will do whatever it can to maximize profit. > So the merc corporation will look like it’s some very awesome, high speed group. It’s founder will be a former SEAL or Green Beret or GSG9 or god knows what. So, that company contracting the merc corporation will expect to be getting a bunch of ex-military types. > BUT, what the corporation will do is walk the streets of Uganda and go to some job fairs in third world countries and find employees who will stand outside of bases and pull security for 900 fucking dollars a month! They are given a short briefing and minimal instructions on their weapons. Then they are handed an AK47 and told where to stand for the next 12 hours. They have no training, no knowledge, no experience. Yet, this is who the US Governement and the US Tax Payers are paying to protect it’s military personnel. Yes people, this is who gaurds your soldier when he sleeps on a US Base. > They’ll all be housed in some shotty ass billets where they’re packed in past max capacity. There they’ll leach off of legitamite soldier resources, their USO, their MWR, and countless other charitable goods and services ignorantly provided by generous Americans who think they’re supporting American servicemen. > > Welcome to the World of Government Contracted Security. It’s bordorline human trafficking in many ways. And, despite what you hear, it’s not all about ex-military Americans getting rich working for Blackwater, et al. > It’s about companies like Triple Canopy, SOC SMG, and countless others providing the cheapest garbage they can round up in Africa, paying them NOTHING to gaurd American bases, treating their third world personnel like trash, refusing to provide for their morale or welfare (let the Army do it… they can leach off the soldiers) and all the while soaking up the profits. Do you have any cite for all of that? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/33 "2008-11-16T21:49:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Do you have any cite for all of that? Yeah, it’s a bunch of total crap. Some Mercenary outfits are like this, but Blackwater is a high end agency. It’s just like any other business. There are crap agencies and there are quality agencies. Has anyone posting in this thread read the Scahill book? I have it but haven’t gotten to it yet. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/34 "2008-11-16T21:52:59Z")
If I remember correctly, he was (or is) there. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/35 "2008-11-16T22:22:00Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > If I remember correctly, he was (or is) there. Which post are you responding to? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/36 "2008-11-16T22:56:03Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yeah, it’s a bunch of total crap. Some Mercenary outfits are like this, but Blackwater is a high end agency. It’s just like any other business. There are crap agencies and there are quality agencies. Well aren’t you just a contradiction. Make up your mind. Either _some_ outfits are like this, or my post was _total_ crap. It can’t be both! If you’ll notice, I never said anything specifically about Blackwater. I specifically mentioned two other groups who are NOT BlackWater. I met nothing but ex-military professionals from Blackwater and I hold them all in high regards. > [@Brain Glutton](#): > > Do you have a cite for any of that? Which part is so far-fetched that it requires a cite other than personal knowledge/experience? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/37 "2008-11-16T22:59:50Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Well aren’t you just a contradiction. Make up your mind. Either _some_ outfits are like this, or my post was _total_ crap. It can’t be both! > If you’ll notice, I never said anything specifically about Blackwater. I specifically mentioned two other groups who are NOT BlackWater. I met nothing but ex-military professionals from Blackwater and I hold them all in high regards. I apologize then. My mistake. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/38 "2008-11-16T23:03:10Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Which part is so far-fetched that it requires a cite other than personal knowledge/experience? It’s just that I don’t recall seeing any Ugandans in news footage from Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/39 "2008-11-16T23:19:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yeah, it’s a bunch of total crap. Some Mercenary outfits are like this, but Blackwater is a high end agency. It’s just like any other business. There are crap agencies and there are quality agencies. > > Has anyone posting in this thread read the Scahill book? I have it but haven’t gotten to it yet. [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8353942004369311258](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8353942004369311258) I read it last year. Here is Scahill talking about them. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760/40 "2008-11-16T23:20:11Z")
That’s an easy thing to cite. Give me a sec and I will upload some pictures. My connections sucks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackwater-should-be-shut-down-and-prosecuted/472760.md?page=3)