# Blair accused of war crimes. Dossier handed into the Hague **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662 "2003-07-29T15:02:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/21 "2003-07-29T19:53:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*The scary part is that I can imagine some conservative commentators in the United States seizing on this as “proof” that the ICC is evil and that George W. Bush was right for opting out. > \*\* Got it in one, **rjung**. This case shows some weaknesses in the ICC structure – that it can be misused for political purposes. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/22 "2003-07-29T20:04:44Z")
The genocide adccusation seems far-fetched but given the information that I have, it seems that they very well may have violated the UN charter and the Geneva Convention, by waging what is called an “aggressive” war. I’ll be interested to see what the rationalization will be in the decision to try or not to try this case. Could somebody please explain the “political motives” of the Athens bar association would be in bringing these charges? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/23 "2003-07-29T20:16:50Z")
They’re not wild about American policy and feel that nuking Blair is a nice way to try to make law? I still want to know how Blair would be brought before the ICC. If there is no procedure to do it, it reflects badly on the structure of the court in my view. Seems like a default consideration right? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/24 "2003-07-29T20:30:33Z")
> [@](#): > > The scary part is that I can imagine some conservative commentators in the United States seizing on this as “proof” that the ICC is evil and that George W. Bush was right for opting out. One needn’t be **conservative** to take that stance. I guess they can’t charge Saddam Hussein since they’re too busy going after the really nasty guys like Blaire. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/25 "2003-07-29T20:33:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*The scary part is that I can imagine some conservative commentators in the United States seizing on this as “proof” that the ICC is evil and that George W. Bush was right for opting out. > > “Could you imagine this international conspiracy, with members belonging to such _wonderful_ countries like Libya and China, dragging _our_ brave soldiers into their kangaroo court to stand trial like common criminals?” > > :rolleyes: \*\* Good Lord… I think that quote was from me in the “Yanks why don’t you like the ICC?” thread… I feel so… American. ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/26 "2003-07-29T20:46:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*One needn’t be **conservative** to take that stance. I guess they can’t charge Saddam Hussein since they’re too busy going after the really nasty guys like Blaire. \*\* [Mandatory Lileks link](http://www.lileks.com/writings/screed/kristoff.html). ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/27 "2003-07-29T20:47:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > They’re not wild about American policy and feel that nuking Blair is a nice way to try to make law? Well if by “not wild about American policy” you mean considering parts of it as constituting war crimes, then you haven’t really come up with an ulterior motive. For example, it would be easy to see why a rival political party in Britain might have trumped up charges without really needing a reason. I don’t know much about the Athens Bar association and I don’t know what, if anything, they stand to gain by Tony Blair’s demise. So any explanations are welcome. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \*I guess they can’t charge Saddam Hussein since they’re too busy going after the really nasty guys like Blaire. Or maybe because Saddam was in one of those “rogue” states that works outside of international laws and the ICC, you know like the US does. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/28 "2003-07-29T21:27:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by errata \* > \*\*The genocide adccusation seems far-fetched but given the information that I have, it seems that they very well may have violated the UN charter and the Geneva Convention, by waging what is called an “aggressive” war. > > I’ll be interested to see what the rationalization will be in the decision to try or not to try this case. > > Could somebody please explain the “political motives” of the Athens bar association would be in bringing these charges? \*\* It could of possibly of violated the UN charter (there’s no real formal punishment that can be brought for this except by a UNSC resolution), though in my opinion as someone who is not an expert in but has an interest in international law this is probably not the case. However the Geneva Convetion(s) only set out how parties should behave in war and offer no guidance on whether or not parties sghould go to war. That said there is a catergory of crimes from the Nuremburg trials known as “crimes against peace”. The Greeks have generally been opposed to this war more than any other European nation, even the French and also hold grudges against the UK and US (not unjustifiably) surrounding their roles in earlier mismanagemnt of their country. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/29 "2003-07-29T21:30:40Z")
**errata** , fair enough, I had never heard of them either. I would say that any left leaning organization in Europe is not going to like the policies of the current US administration and would likely enjoy going after any opening they see. I note however that they have yet to bring Vladimir Putin up on charges for his role in Chechnya, a much nastier, longer, bloodier war than Iraq. Back to the court. The fact that Saddam could not be charged is pointless. Even if Iraq had signed there does not appear to be any mechanism to get anyone to the Hague. There seems no way for the ICC to enforcing its mandate outside of “global disdain”. A court with no enforcement mechanism is a paper tiger. Let’s face it, if you’ve really been out there doing genocide and intentionally committing crimes against humanity (Saddam/Pinochet/Eidi Amin) you don’t really care much what the rest of the world thinks do you? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/30 "2003-07-29T21:41:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*The scary part is that I can imagine some conservative commentators in the United States seizing on this as “proof” that the ICC is evil and that George W. Bush was right for opting out. > > “Could you imagine this international conspiracy, with members belonging to such _wonderful_ countries like Libya and China, dragging _our_ brave soldiers into their kangaroo court to stand trial like common criminals?” > > :rolleyes: \*\* What’s with the quotation marks, rjung? This IS proof that the ICC will be used by left-wing ideologues to demonize and prosecute politocoans they don’t like. The people you SHOULD be fuming at are the left-wing Europeans who are playing right into Bush’s hands, by showing that his misgivings about the ICC were 100% correct all along. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/31 "2003-07-29T22:01:23Z")
**astorian** , as I siad before I have always supported the ICC and indeed I am fuming at this trivalization of international justice. However, we are only at the stage of the complaint being lodged and if, as it should be, this compalint is thrown out I can not see how you can say that it in anyway proves Bush’s misgivings. As I said before this is a test for th ICC and whether it passes or fails it is yet to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/32 "2003-07-29T22:16:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > The fact that Saddam could not be charged is pointless. Even if Iraq had signed there does not appear to be any mechanism to get anyone to the Hague. There seems no way for the ICC to enforcing its mandate outside of “global disdain”. A court with no enforcement mechanism is a paper tiger. Let’s face it, if you’ve really been out there doing genocide and intentionally committing crimes against humanity (Saddam/Pinochet/Eidi Amin) you don’t really care much what the rest of the world thinks do you? That does seem to be the irony of the ICC. OTOH I don’t know of a better way to deal with the problems like Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia. I don’t know the specifics on Chechnya or Putin, but the ICC does not have jurisdiction over past crimes.[cite](http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/02/miloicc0211.htm) If the case holds any water, it would be interesting to see how things are handled though. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/33 "2003-07-29T22:28:52Z")
But the court fails to prevent such occurrences because the victors simply ignore the request to drop the leaders off in The Hague. The losers obviously get sent to a tribunal or the ICC. Nasty system unless we want aggressive wars to acquire the leaders to put them on trial. Ick. As for Chechnya, you’re right about past crimes, however it’s still raging on and on and on… I agree, it will be interesting to see what the UK does if the ICC opts to go with it. Then the UK has to prosecute internally or surrender Blair to The Hague. What if they opt not to prosecute? ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/34 "2003-07-29T22:51:51Z")
Umm actually, Re: Chechnya, I don’t think that Russia has ratified the ICC treaty yet. [http://web.amnesty.org/pages/int\_jus\_icc\_signatures\_ratifications](http://web.amnesty.org/pages/int_jus_icc_signatures_ratifications) I believe that participating in the icc is required for EU membership, so I don’t think Britain can back out. If it does make it to Britain, I imagine they will consider the case and then promptly throw it out. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/35 "2003-07-29T23:02:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*and btw, this is the newly constituted ICC, not the War Crimes Tribunal - but you all knew that, didn’t ya. \*\* To clarify: There are several war crimes tribunals (Nuremberg, Tokyo, Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Sierra Leone), but if someone referred to The War Crimes Tribunal, it would be appropriate to assume they were referring to the ICC - it seems that term is well on its way to becoming the popular name. It would be wrong to refer to the ICTY as “the war crimes tribunal” unless it was crystal clear from the context which tribunal you were referring to. It would be akin to saying “Supreme Court” when you meant the California Supreme Court, not the U.S. Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/36 "2003-07-29T23:02:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by errata \* > **Umm actually, Re: Chechnya, I don’t think that Russia has ratified the ICC treaty yet.** Opps. True. Looks like they signed in 2000 and have yet to ratify it, much like the US. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by errata \* > \*\*I believe that participating in the icc is required for EU membership, so I don’t think Britain can back out. > > If it does make it to Britain, I imagine they will consider the case and then promptly throw it out. \*\* Possibly but what makes me wonder about that is from here [link](http://www.iccnow.org/documents/iccbasics/Q&AJuly2002.doc) > [@](#): > > Although the ICC is designed to complement existing national judicial systems, the Court can exercise its jurisdiction if national courts are unwilling or unable to investigate or prosecute such crimes. Therefore, the Court also serves as a catalyst to States’ investigating and prosecuting such crimes committed either within their territories or by their nationals. Looks to me that if the UK opts not to go to trial the ICC assumes the case. I’m not a lawyer so I could be easily wrong, but that is how it looks to me. So even if the Brits throw the case out the ICC could takeover. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/37 "2003-07-29T23:07:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astorian \* > What’s with the quotation marks, rjung? This IS proof that the ICC will be used by left-wing ideologues to demonize and prosecute politocoans they don’t like. No, so far this is a bunch of Greek lawyers making political hay. Since the ICC hasn’t decided yet whether to actually hear the case or toss it out as so much nonsense, attributing this as “proof” of wrongdoing by the ICC is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/38 "2003-07-29T23:10:26Z")
> [@](#): > > If it does make it to Britain, I imagine they will consider the case and then promptly throw it out. So what would happen, then? Britain decides the case has no merit, so the ICC has to accept that verdict? If that’s the case, then how can the ICC be used to prosecute any leaders accused of applicable crimes? Assume that Iraq had participated in the ICC, and Saddam was charged for something or other (say, genocide), could Saddam just arrange a “court” to find him not guilty, and be done with it? Alternately, if Britain simply throwing the case out is not sufficient, what happens then? Jeff ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/39 "2003-07-29T23:14:06Z")
See my quote from the ICC. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662/40 "2003-07-29T23:21:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by errata \* > **The genocide adccusation seems far-fetched but given the information that I have, it seems that they very well may have violated the UN charter and the Geneva Convention, by waging what is called an “aggressive” war.** I have never heard any international law experts argue that the war in Iraq _doesn’t_ violate international law (specifically the UN Charter). Despite the Bushista’s claims, this is a cut-and-dry issue. However, the prosecution of the crime of waging a war of agression was one of the more controversial aspects of the Nuremberg trials, and the ICC isn’t totally comfortable with the idea either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blair-accused-of-war-crimes-dossier-handed-into-the-hague/191662.md?page=3)