# "Blame America First" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398 "2010-08-25T14:26:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/21 "2010-08-25T16:05:08Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > If the use of “blame America first” was limited to situations involving extremists like Ward Churchill, there would be no problem. But it’s most commonly used as a broad brush to shut down anyone to the left of any particular policy. Actually, I’d characterize it not so much as an anti-Left rhetorical bludgeon as an anti-thoughtful-foreign-policy rhetorical bludgeon. Any attempt to try to actually dissect a foreign policy issue and figure out whose policy actions contributed to any tension is seen as BAF. Truthfully, any attempt to do anything but paint the USA as a blameless sainted missionary for truth, justice and democracy is seen as BAF. > [@Bricker](#): > > > [@jayjay](#): > > > > Perhaps. It is also the opinion of a very, VERY marginal person on the left. If you asked 1000 liberals who Ward Churchill was, I’m pretty confident that at least 95% of them wouldn’t be able to tell him from the WWII-era prime minister of the UK. > > Well, if you wish to characterize your side as so remarkably uninformed, who am I to argue? 😃 Shall I go ahead and claim that all conservatives are xenophobic racists based on the actions and words of David Duke? (Although the comparison isn’t completely apt, since David Duke has much higher name recognition than Ward Churchill ever will.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/22 "2010-08-25T16:05:25Z")
I see the smiley, but just to take that issue on for a second. Ward Churchill means nothing to most on the left – he’s a marginal radical whose views have little bearing on mainstream issues. So there’s really little reason for those on the left to know about him. However, for the right, Ward Churchill is a fantastic strawman who can be used to demonize everyone on the left, especially those whose views have nothing to do with Churchill. So it’s in their interest to know a lot about him. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/23 "2010-08-25T16:19:33Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > However, for the right, Ward Churchill is a fantastic strawman who can be used to demonize everyone on the left, especially those whose views have nothing to do with Churchill. So it’s in their interest to know a lot about him. You should make an Infographic on that akin to this one on “[Who has read the Bible](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_DRuTjF7-sGI/S_HQmVMGbiI/AAAAAAAAClw/fvltv20WE2Q/s1600/atheists+and+the+bible+piechart.png).” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/24 "2010-08-25T16:46:18Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > Paint with a broad brush much? > > So he said ‘anytime’ rather than ‘often’. > > So sue him. I’d say the same thing if he said “often”. At a minimum, he should give us a few examples so we can set some boundaries. Or else we end up with \*\*Bricker \*\*offering counter examples, and then you guys shoot them down one by one. Let’s define what we’re talking about before we talk about it. Let me make a suggestion: Let’s discuss the claim that Obama does this. That he’s an American blamer. Would that work? ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/25 "2010-08-25T16:54:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Let me make a suggestion: Let’s discuss the claim that Obama does this. That he’s an American blamer. Would that work? I thought we were discussing people who reacted to any criticism of US policy by calling those who criticised: ‘America blamers’ - not the people who were making the criticisms. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/26 "2010-08-25T17:21:39Z")
Hey! Can the fucking pedantry about the frequency of such exchanges and stay on point, please. It DOES happen; what is your opinion of that? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/27 "2010-08-25T17:34:51Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Hey! Can the fucking pedantry about the frequency of such exchanges and stay on point, please. It DOES happen; what is your opinion of that? My opinion is: when it happens as the OP describes, it’s an example of the fallacy of hasty generalization, with a bit of ad hominem tossed in for seasoning, and thus an invalid argument. But the frequency of such events is part of the point. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/28 "2010-08-25T17:40:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, if you wish to characterize your side as so remarkably uninformed, who am I to argue? Why _should_ we have heard of him? How many members of the administration of UC Boulder can you name off the top of your head? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/29 "2010-08-25T17:47:12Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Hey! Can the fucking pedantry about the frequency of such exchanges and stay on point, please. It DOES happen; what is your opinion of that? My opinions is that there are instances when the accusation is right and instances when it is wrong. I don’t see what else one could say about the general statement. If you have a way of counting and cataloging all the instances, I suppose we could make an attempt at determining the ratio of right accusations to wrong. I mean, this is silly. When it’s bad, it’s bad. When it’s good, it’s good. Without a specific example, there really isn’t much more one can say. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/30 "2010-08-25T17:47:49Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/31 "2010-08-25T17:50:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@An\_Arky](#): > > > > Hey! Can the fucking pedantry about the frequency of such exchanges and stay on point, please. It DOES happen; what is your opinion of that? > > My opinion is: when it happens as the OP describes, it’s an example of the fallacy of hasty generalization, with a bit of ad hominem tossed in for seasoning, and thus an invalid argument. > > But the frequency of such events is part of the point. That’s better. And I do agree that overstating the frequency of such events can be in itself a hasty generalization. How much a part of the point it may be, however, is, um, debatable. 🙂 Wait…:smack: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@An\_Arky](#): > > > > Hey! Can the fucking pedantry about the frequency of such exchanges and stay on point, please. It DOES happen; what is your opinion of that? > > My opinions is that there are instances when the accusation is right and instances when it is wrong. I don’t see what else one could say about the general statement. If you have a way of counting and cataloging all the instances, I suppose we could make an attempt at determining the ratio of right accusations to wrong. > > I mean, this is silly. When it’s bad, it’s bad. When it’s good, it’s good. Without a specific example, there really isn’t much more one can say. Yes. I happen to think that the OP, while perhaps erring in semantics, is being reasonable with his question, not knee-jerking. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/32 "2010-08-25T17:54:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Well, if you wish to characterize your side as so remarkably uninformed, who am I to argue? > > Why _should_ we have heard of him? How many members of the administration of UC Boulder can you name off the top of your head? I hope my tongue-in-cheek comment came off as tongue-in cheek. But I think I can name three or four: Dave Getches, Melissa Hart from the law school, and … uh.. Phil Stefano, the guy who fired Churchill. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/33 "2010-08-25T17:57:36Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > > [@tim-n-va](#): > > > > Anytime there is even a suggestion that US policies cause others to react against us, you hear it dismissed as the person being part of the “blame America first” crowd. > > > > When I moved into my house, I plugged stuff into outlets to figure out which ones were controlled by which switch and which ones were always on. I wasn’t blaming the switch, just trying to understand what was going on. It might influence what I plug in. I might decide that something I’d prefer to always be on works better for physical placement on a switch-controlled-outlet (not blindly following a pattern, just using information). > > > > By analogy, knowing what American policy is making terrorists want to attack us isn’t “blaming America”, it is understanding. In some cases we might want to change the policy. In others, we might think the policy serves important needs despite the risk. > > > > Parallel to that, we should evaluate policies that make people like us also. > > > > Does this make sense or am I just not patriotic enough? > > I think it makes sense. I get frustrated at the “love it or leave it” crowd because trying to change things you perceive as problems is more patriotic than sitting there like a bump on a log waving a flag, IMHO. Love it or leave it, pal. /waves flag ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/34 "2010-08-25T18:00:27Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Yes. I happen to think that the OP, while perhaps erring in semantics, is being reasonable with his question, not knee-jerking. I didn’t say or imply that he was knee-jerking. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/35 "2010-08-25T18:27:02Z")
Nor did I say _you_ were. What I mean is that the OP wasn’t coming from the typical stance that one would normally dismiss as excessively partisan. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/36 "2010-08-25T20:06:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@jayjay](#): > > > > Perhaps. It is also the opinion of a very, VERY marginal person on the left. If you asked 1000 liberals who Ward Churchill was, I’m pretty confident that at least 95% of them wouldn’t be able to tell him from the WWII-era prime minister of the UK. > > Well, if you wish to characterize your side as so remarkably uninformed, who am I to argue? 😃 Thanks for the example of the Right Wing smear machine. Was that necessary? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/37 "2010-08-25T20:37:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@acsenray](#): > > > > If the use of “blame America first” was limited to situations involving extremists like Ward Churchill, there would be no problem. But it’s most commonly used as a broad brush to shut down anyone to the left of any particular policy. > > I don’t agree that’s it’s most common use. > > I certainly agree it’s used that way at times. “Blame America First” has ~35,700 results on Google. The top few articles have the subject being: “[a lot of Americans](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/03/the_blameamericafirst_crowd.html)”, “[San Francisco Democrats](http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/conventions/san.diego/facts/GOP.speeches.past/84.kirkpatrick.shtml)” (the original usage of the phrase), “[Soft anti-Americans](http://motherjones.com/politics/2002/01/blaming-america-first)” (foreigners, if I’m reading it correctly), “[Dick Gephardt" and "John Kerry](http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/blame_america_first_liberals.htm)”, and “[Democrats](http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/774oqxhi.asp)”. So, I think it’s fair to say that the phrase is most commonly ascribed to run-of-the-mill liberals, not just more extreme members of the left like Ward Churchill. Search results here if you want to peruse them: [Google Search](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22blame+america+first%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox) ETA: Search results ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/38 "2010-08-25T20:49:08Z")
A fine example, from this very afternoon: > [@NYC cabbie stabbed for being Muslim.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nyc-cabbie-stabbed-for-being-muslim/551428/13): > > Y’know, in various parts of the world, Muslims are being killed for being Muslims, Hindus are being killed for being Hindus, Buddhists are being killed for being Buddhists, Christians are being killed for being Christians, Animists are being killed for being Animists… People are killed for being the wrong color, tribe, sexual orientation or the fan of the wrong sports team. > > Is there some sort of universal pattern … hmm … no, it’s just America that sucks. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/39 "2010-08-25T21:50:48Z")
It is a lie that America might be responsible for some consequences of forcing other peoples to accept that we win and they lose. Might makes right Until they see the light They’ve got to be protected All their rights respected Till someone we like Can be elected – Tom Lehrer ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398/40 "2010-08-26T01:23:54Z")
Would the lefties here characterize Obama’s minister for the last 20 years, Jeremiah Wright, as a blame-America-firster? Talk radio certainly isn’t lacking for quotes of his that seem to suggest that America is usually at fault, had 9/11 coming to it, etc. Maybe he’s an extremist too, though, and not representative of the standard-issue, run of the mill, 240 yrds down the fairway, Lefties. Let’s hope the president didn’t assimilate any of that garbage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blame-america-first/551398.md?page=3)