# "blaming the victim" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 4, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903 "2015-09-04T14:09:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/181 "2015-09-10T15:16:05Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But FWIW my sense is that men who sexually assault do not need to be drunk to do so… Just like one does not have to be drunk to be a victim of sexual assault. Which is another reason why the repeated advice about not getting drunk is tiresome in the context of rape prevention. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/182 "2015-09-10T15:43:24Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If Stranger 1 is a guy, though? More ire will be directed at the crazy psycho hose beast that victimized him. Him having a few beers wouldn’t figure into the analysis (because a man can hold his liquor until assumed otherwise, amirite?), and his credibility wouldn’t be tossed out of the window due his sluttiness. Him inviting a stranger into his home will also matter a lot less than whether he was right in inviting _this_ particular stranger into his home. In other words, I could see him being faulted for not seeing signs of crazy in his date, but I don’t see him being faulted for not \* assuming\* his date was crazy. > > Does anyone disagree with this assessment? That’s an interesting example, thanks for bringing it up. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/183 "2015-09-10T15:45:17Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Enough responders for me suggest that it seems that once the strawmen are unstuffed both “sides” actually agree fairly broadly. (Even with where they disagree with my answer!) Out of curiosity, what do you think the two “sides” are in this debate? I feel like there’s been a fair bit of talking past each other and requests for clarification, but not actual staking out of disagreeing positions. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/184 "2015-09-10T16:19:14Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Your post summarizes my feelings on this subject. > > Taking public transit without an escort at night has marked me as a brazen dare-devil among some people. I’ve been tsked tsked for going to bars and parties and enjoying drinks without using an entourage to protect me. I’ve triggered gasps by revealing the fact I’ve traveled internationally solo. All because I’m a woman. > > And yet, I see men do this and more all the time, without opening themselves up to raised eyebrows and lectures. Men are bigger than women, and therefore are not at the same level of risk of being sexually assaulted. > [@](#): > > This even though they are more likely to be the victims of violent crimes, fatal accidents, and other serious mishaps than women are. Granted. They are, however, much less at risk of being sexually assaulted. Therefore the advice given to men is going to differ in many respects from the advice given to women. > [@](#): > > We as a society are much more comfortable with curtailing women’s social freedom than we are with men. Society is not curtailing women’s social freedom. We are advising women that some behaviors are riskier than others. Should it be that way? Of course not. A woman should be able to get as blotto as she likes, in a place packed with strangers, and never worry about anyone laying a hand on her. That’s how it should be. It’s not how it is. Complaining that it is unfair kind of misses the point. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Just like one does not have to be drunk to be a victim of sexual assault. Which is another reason why the repeated advice about not getting drunk is tiresome in the context of rape prevention. No, you don’t _have_ to be drunk to get raped. But it sure raises the risk. You don’t always get AIDS when you have sex without a condom. Therefore it’s tiresome to keep hearing about safe sex in the context of AIDS prevention. And anyone who tells a heterosexual woman to use condoms is blaming the victim. Right? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/185 "2015-09-10T16:52:04Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Just like one does not have to be drunk to be a victim of sexual assault. Which is another reason why the repeated advice about not getting drunk is tiresome in the context of rape prevention. Falsely making comments about relative risk into strawman absolutes. My point remains about relative risk, as I stated “I believe assaulters are more likely more often not drunk to serious impairment level.” There is very good reason to believe that a young woman seriously drug or alcohol impaired is at a significantly increased risk of becoming a victim of sexual assault than the same woman who has imbibed much more moderately or not at all. The risk is highly significant. OTOH the evidence that becoming seriously drug or alcohol impaired significantly increases the risk of a young man to become a perpetrator compared to if he had consumed only modestly or not at all is scant at best. My strong belief is that binge drinking is a seriously stupid thing to do for all. I have known of too many young adults who have died as a result of binge drinking. Falls down stairwells, off balconies, drowning in his/her own vomit, taking the “shortcut” through a train tunnel … so on. Worldwide [25% of all deaths](http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs349/en/)in the 20 to 39 year-old cohort are alcohol related. (Yeah I am “victim blaming”, I know.) The risks associated with excess alcohol [among college students in America](http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/supportingresearch/journal/hingson2.aspx) are staggering. I do not believe that getting completely shit-faced is a required young adult developmental milestone or ever anything other than stupid. And in terms of what an individual young woman can realistically do to reduce her risk of sexual assault avoiding becoming alcohol or drug impaired tops the list. It does not lower it to zero but it does decrease it a lot. Really your argument is like someone saying that not all car accident deaths involve not wearing seat belts so advice about wearing seat belts is tiresome. And here is where I may be judge to cross the line into “victim blaming”: I feel horrible for the person who was unbuckled and hit by someone texting while driving and who died or was seriously hurt when if buckled they would have likely had been okay. I do however think using that as an illustration to others about why they need to always buckle up is reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/186 "2015-09-10T16:54:31Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Out of curiosity, what do you think the two “sides” are in this debate? I feel like there’s been a fair bit of talking past each other and requests for clarification, but not actual staking out of disagreeing positions. Hence why the “sides” was in quotes. People are upset with perceived positions when they are not really disagreeing all that much. It is more a fight of swinging baggage than actual positions staked out. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/187 "2015-09-10T17:12:50Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > My point remains about relative risk, as I stated “I believe assaulters are more likely more often not drunk to serious impairment level.” > > There is very good reason to believe that a young woman seriously drug or alcohol impaired is at a significantly increased risk of becoming a victim of sexual assault than the same woman who has imbibed much more moderately or not at all. The risk is highly significant. > > OTOH the evidence that becoming seriously drug or alcohol impaired significantly increases the risk of a young man to become a perpetrator compared to if he had consumed only modestly or not at all is scant at best. Maybe I am not understanding you. Somewhere around half of rapists were drinking at the time of their assault(s). > [@](#): > > At least one-half of all violent crimes involve alcohol consumption by the perpetrator, the victim, or both (Collins and Messerschmidt 1993). Sexual assault fits this pattern. Thus, across the disparate populations studied, researchers consistently have found that approximately one-half of all sexual assaults are committed by men who have been drinking alcohol. Depending on the sample studied and the measures used, the estimates for alcohol use among perpetrators have ranged from 34 to 74 percent (Abbey et al. 1994; Crowell and Burgess 1996). Similarly, approximately one-half of all sexual assault victims report that they were drinking alcohol at the time of the assault, with estimates ranging from 30 to 79 percent (Abbey et al. 1994; Crowell and Burgess 1996). It is important to emphasize, however, that although a woman’s alcohol consumption may place her at increased risk of sexual assault, she is in no way responsible for the assault. The perpetrators are legally and morally responsible for their behavior. > > Finally, alcohol consumption by perpetrators and victims tends to co-occur that is, when one of them is drinking, the other one is generally drinking as well (Abbey et al. 1998; Harrington and Leitenberg 1994). Rarely is only the victim drinking alcohol. This finding is not surprising, because in social situations (e.g., in bars or at parties), drinking tends to be a shared activity. However, this finding complicates researchers’ efforts to disentangle the unique effects of alcohol consumption on the perpetrators’ versus the victims’ behavior. [Cite](http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-1/43-51.htm). What they say about both the victim and the attacker drinking before the attack seems to me significant. Men are usually larger than women, and therefore a given dose of alcohol will affect a woman more than a man. Is that what you are talking about? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/188 "2015-09-10T17:51:37Z")
“Has been drinking” ≠ “seriously alcohol impaired” or “drunk” “Has been drinking” may equal someone with extant ill-intent nursing a drink or two while working hard to get the target near passing out drunk. Can a young woman significantly reduce her risk of being victimized by keeping her alcohol consumption to moderate levels? Very few would argue that such is not true. (I say at the risk of being labeled a “victim blamer”.) My daughter will be told that by me long before she goes off to college even though she will roll her eyes and tell me “No duh dad.” Does a young man significantly reduce his risk of becoming a perpetrator by keeping his alcohol consumption to moderate levels? That seems less clearly established to me. It makes sense that bad decisions and assessments may be made including as to whether or not the woman saying “no” actually means “yes” but making sense and true are not the same thing. While there are _many_ reasons to discourage male binge drinking it is unclear to me whether or not decreased male binge drinking would reduce males sexually assaulting females. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/189 "2015-09-10T18:25:15Z")
Okay, perhaps I understand what you are saying a little better. Is this related to the idea that “if you get too drunk to consent, you have been raped, but if you are too drunk to recognize that she is too drunk to consent, you are still a rapist”?\* Do they routinely give drug or alcohol tests to people who are arrested? That’s the only way I can think of off the top of my head to determine how commonly rapists are drinking but not legally drunk/legally drunk/totally polluted. Providing they were arrested soon enough after the rape, of course. Regards, Shodan \*I am not disputing the validity of the idea, I am just wondering if that is what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/190 "2015-09-10T18:33:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Really your argument is like someone saying that not all car accident deaths involve not wearing seat belts so advice about wearing seat belts is tiresome. In as much as the simile holds, yes. If people actually talked about wearing seatbelts to the same level they tell women how to avoid being raped, it would be really tiresome. You hear about seat belts in school, drivers ed, maybe some signs on the road. Maybe very occasionally some public service announcement. It’s not something that is brought up every time we want to deal with accident prevention. Heck, it’s not even something friends will usually tell each other. Of course, this wouldn’t make it victim blaming, which is where the simile breaks down. There is no victim/aggressor situation here. Car crashes are, at some level, something that cannot be avoided. You need to add in a drunk driver. But, for some reason, we were in a bizzarro society where the focus was all on wearing your seatbelt rather than not driving drunk. Where, every time you talked about drunk drivers, half the audience would bring up wearing seatbelts. Ultimately, when it comes to risk reduction tips, victim blaming is about focus. Well, that and attitude and context–but that’s another post. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/191 "2015-09-10T18:38:37Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > While there are _many_ reasons to discourage male binge drinking it is unclear to me whether or not decreased male binge drinking would reduce males sexually assaulting females. Why be so skeptical about this? Alcohol lowers inhibitions; that’s not a controversial fact. For some people, a lower inhibition means they may flirt with the opposite sex when they otherwise would have sat in the corner. For other people, a lower inhibition may mean groping, undressing, and performing sex acts on an near-incapacitated person seems less icky. And for others, a lower inhibition may mean turning into a wild, aggressive person who doesn’t care about consent as much as they do about getting laid. It doesn’t even take binge drinking to bring this about, either. Just a buzz can alter people’s personalities significantly. I think I would respect your position more if didn’t come across so biased. There really is no rational justification for warning girls to drink sensibly while not extending the same message to boys, when the latter are not only more likely to abuse it but suffer the consequences. Rape is not the only bad thing out there. Many a man has died because of an alcohol-fueled behavior. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/192 "2015-09-10T18:41:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Okay, perhaps I understand what you are saying a little better. > > Is this related to the idea that “if you get too drunk to consent, you have been raped, but if you are too drunk to recognize that she is too drunk to consent, you are still a rapist”?\* > > Do they routinely give drug or alcohol tests to people who are arrested? That’s the only way I can think of off the top of my head to determine how commonly rapists are drinking but not legally drunk/legally drunk/totally polluted. Providing they were arrested soon enough after the rape, of course. > > Regards, > Shodan > > \*I am not disputing the validity of the idea, I am just wondering if that is what you are talking about. It’s related to those who have been arguing, if I understand correctly, that rape prevention should focus as much on males not getting overly drunk, as if it established that getting drunk is a major contributor to males raping. I am very much an advocate for decreased binge drinking but I doubt decreased binge drinking by males would impact the rate of sexual assaults all that much. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/193 "2015-09-10T18:45:55Z")
I think the reason why DSeid is seeing broad agreement is that he deliberately chose the areas on where we agree. The disagreement is in the details. Ultimately, the OP’s question is “when do risk reduction tips cross into victim blaming?” I’m glad we all agree on the broadest details: That the CDC’s tips are fine, but those same tips right after someone is raped is victim blaming. Great. But, while I mentioned focus before, I also wish to go into attitude and context. Have you ever noticed that the people who complain the loudest about giving rape risk reduction tips are also the ones that have a history of being blunt in how they speak, argumentative in situations that require empathy, or get really upset when someone is offended by what they say? Or that they are the kind that rarely apologize when they unintentionally offend someone? I think this is a big clue for whether we interpret their comments as victim blaming. They may say it in a way that comes across wrong. Or maybe just their general attitude comes across that way. They come off as confrontational, and thus as blaming, even when they don’t mean to be. And the lack of apology makes people think that it wasn’t an accident. Then, of course, there’s the context, like if we’re discussing how to stop rape, or the context of someone who is constantly telling women how they should act, as brought up by one person above. All that stuff leads into the interpretation. And that’s where I think we disagree. It’s not victim blaming unless you meant it that way. The implications of what you say are mostly irrelevant (except in the extreme circumstance of right after a rape). Or, to put it another way, it’s the old divide about whether you should try not to unnecessarily offend people. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/194 "2015-09-10T18:52:31Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > In as much as the simile holds, yes. If people actually talked about wearing seatbelts to the same level they tell women how to avoid being raped, it would be really tiresome. You hear about seat belts in school, drivers ed, maybe some signs on the road. Maybe very occasionally some public service announcement. It’s not something that is brought up every time we want to deal with accident prevention. Heck, it’s not even something friends will usually tell each other. > > Of course, this wouldn’t make it victim blaming, which is where the simile breaks down. There is no victim/aggressor situation here. Car crashes are, at some level, something that cannot be avoided. You need to add in a drunk driver. But, for some reason, we were in a bizzarro society where the focus was all on wearing your seatbelt rather than not driving drunk. Where, every time you talked about drunk drivers, half the audience would bring up wearing seatbelts. > > Ultimately, when it comes to risk reduction tips, victim blaming is about focus. Well, that and attitude and context–but that’s another post. Dang, we have actual LAWS about wearing seat belts and ones that make the driver legally responsible for passengers being buckled up. Sometimes random traffic stop checks. And if there is an accident the fact that an injured person was not buckled up will come up and be used to mitigate how much the other driver is responsible for the injuries, even though they were clearly at fault. “They weren’t buckled up? Crap. What kind of idiots were they?” It is taken much more seriously and pervasively than is “Don’t binge drink.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/195 "2015-09-10T19:11:50Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why be so skeptical about this? … Many things that “make sense” are also not true. It may be true. It also may be true that perps are not perps because they are drinking alcohol but that they are drinking motivated by the desire to commit the crime, locating themselves where targets are drinking alcohol to excess so drinking some themselves … that the intent to have sex “one way or the other” comes first and the drinking follows. It gets back to the op - I believe the findings of the Lisak study are likely not wrong but that does not mean that the study establishes it. The study is crap even if it shows what I believe is likely true. And if you, **you with the face** , have read my clearly expressed many times in this thread, let alone my [previously stated position](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=736049), that binge drinking is very stupid _for all_ and is inappropriately facilitated in college environments, then I don’t know what to say. Decreased binge drinking for all is an important message but _as a rape prevention strategy_ a focus on female binge drinking is more likely to reduce sexual assaults than is a focus on male binge drinking. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/196 "2015-09-10T19:29:49Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > … Ultimately, the OP’s question is “when do risk reduction tips cross into victim blaming?” > > I’m glad we all agree on the broadest details: That the CDC’s tips are fine, but those same tips right after someone is raped is victim blaming. Great. > > But, while I mentioned focus before, I also wish to go into attitude and context. … I do not disagree. Maybe that discussion could be useful. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/197 "2015-09-10T19:34:53Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Decreased binge drinking for all is an important message but _as a rape prevention strategy_ a focus on female binge drinking is more likely to reduce sexual assaults than is a focus on male binge drinking. I don’t think you have the evidence to say this so matter of factly. It just sounds like a rationalization for why a parent should admonish their drinking daughters while taking a permissive “boys will be boys” stance towards their sons. As you say, things that “make sense” often are not true, and this sounds like it could easily be an example of that. Let’s say a study determined that there would be 50% fewer rapes if women on college campuses reduced their alcohol consumption by 50%. So instead of drinking four drinks at the party, it would be 2 drinks for them on average. Let’s say the same study also determined that there would be 50% fewer rapes if men didn’t drink at all, assuming that female drinking stayed where it currently is. My take from these findings would be to discourage excessive drinking across the board, but _particularly in men_. Because just a little alcohol in their system can increases the chances that a rape will occur. I would not be surprised if the findings from this hypothetical study mirrored reality, but what we see is advice that is the opposite. The onus is put on women not to drink to distraction, while men are given a lot of latittude. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/198 "2015-09-10T19:38:36Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Dang, we have actual LAWS about wearing seat belts and ones that make the driver legally responsible for passengers being buckled up. Sometimes random traffic stop checks. And if there is an accident the fact that an injured person was not buckled up will come up and be used to mitigate how much the other driver is responsible for the injuries, even though they were clearly at fault. “They weren’t buckled up? Crap. What kind of idiots were they?” It is taken much more seriously and pervasively than is “Don’t binge drink.” Two things - first, both men and women are legally and socially bound to wear seat belts. There is gender equality in seat belts. Second, car accidents (and robbery, home invasion, even personal attacks like car jacking) lack the social elements of shame and humiliation of rape. People equating rape to robbery are missing a major element of women’s anger here. You can go to work on monday and say, “Man, my home was broken into! They got my TV.” Your co-workers will sympathize, one might say, “did you forget to lock the door?”, but it will be treated as a normal conversation about an unfortunate event. Now, imagine going to work and saying, “Man, I was raped at a party on Saturday!” Imagine the stunned silence. No one would ever expect you to share such a thing - it would be more shocking that if you’d stated your brother had been murdered that weekend - the murder might technically have been worse, but it’s actually more socially accepted. I’m trying to illustrate the level of shame and embarrassment women face when sexually assaulted. For a person who is raped, it could very well be one of the worst things they ever face, and they’re not to talk about it. And a lot of that shame is seeped in a cultural history of avoidance and blame. A mix of “I don’t want to believe that this could happen to me, so I need to think of a reason it happened to you,” and “this is uncomfortable, because it’s unconventional sex, and I’m embarrassed for us both. Please don’t talk about it.” What I’m saying is it’s touchy. It’s a lot more touchy that seat belts or a TV or a wallet or, according to society, even a life. Now, something else to consider - when you tell a group of women that they need to not do X, so that they can avoid rape, you probably are already talking to a rape victim. There are, no doubt, several in this thread. I might be one. Unfortunately, I’m not sure. I was awfully drunk at that party. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/199 "2015-09-10T22:27:39Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I don’t think you have the evidence to say this so matter of factly. … Perhaps I have not my points as clearly as I think I have. Unlike the circumstance for binge drinking and female victimization there is no evidence either way for whether or not decreasing binge drinking or even drinking completely by males would have any impact on sexual assault frequency. You can imagine all the evidence you want but it does not make it exist. If it did then acting on it would make sense. Meanwhile I personally do not have a “boys will be boys” permissive attitude to binge drinking. Binge drinking is a major problem and colleges facilitate it. As I linked to in my previous thread bemoaning this: > [@](#): > > Assault: More than 690,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 are assaulted by another student who has been drinking. > > Sexual Abuse: More than 97,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 are victims of alcohol-related sexual assault or date rape. > > Injury: 599,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 receive unintentional injuries while under the influence of alcohol. In general college and young adult culture does not, to my older eyes, strongly look down upon young women getting plastered any more than they do young men. It is considered pretty normative and I do not see that as a good thing for anyone. Young women are at a particular risk associated with the behavior much more than young men are. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903/200 "2015-09-10T22:31:34Z")
> [@Small\_Hen](#): > > Two things - first, both men and women are legally and socially bound to wear seat belts. There is gender equality in seat belts. > > Second, car accidents (and robbery, home invasion, even personal attacks like car jacking) lack the social elements of shame and humiliation of rape. People equating rape to robbery are missing a major element of women’s anger here. You can go to work on monday and say, “Man, my home was broken into! They got my TV.” Your co-workers will sympathize, one might say, “did you forget to lock the door?”, but it will be treated as a normal conversation about an unfortunate event. > > Now, imagine going to work and saying, “Man, I was raped at a party on Saturday!” Imagine the stunned silence. No one would ever expect you to share such a thing - it would be more shocking that if you’d stated your brother had been murdered that weekend - the murder might technically have been worse, but it’s actually more socially accepted. > > I’m trying to illustrate the level of shame and embarrassment women face when sexually assaulted. For a person who is raped, it could very well be one of the worst things they ever face, and they’re not to talk about it. And a lot of that shame is seeped in a cultural history of avoidance and blame. A mix of “I don’t want to believe that this could happen to me, so I need to think of a reason it happened to you,” and “this is uncomfortable, because it’s unconventional sex, and I’m embarrassed for us both. Please don’t talk about it.” > > What I’m saying is it’s touchy. It’s a lot more touchy that seat belts or a TV or a wallet or, according to society, even a life. Now, something else to consider - when you tell a group of women that they need to not do X, so that they can avoid rape, you probably are already talking to a rape victim. There are, no doubt, several in this thread. I might be one. Unfortunately, I’m not sure. I was awfully drunk at that party. There is gender equality for seat belts because there is equality of risk. Younger kids are not treated the same and need to be in car seats because there is different risks. I understand that rape has other psychological and emotional impacts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blaming-the-victim/729903.md?page=11)