# Blasphemy in Ireland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790 "2009-04-30T00:02:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/1 "2009-04-30T00:02:52Z")
Ireland has always had the crimes of blasphemy and sedition written into the Constitution, but due to vaugeness, the courts never enforced them. Enter our Justice, Equality and Law Reform Minister, who has introduced blasphemy legislation with a maximum penalty of €100,000 for blasphemous or seditious material. However it should be noted that only the state can now take prosecutiond for blasphemy, and not members of the public. So. Do dopers think that blasphemy laws still have a place in society? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/2 "2009-04-30T00:16:16Z")
> [@](#): > > So. Do dopers think that blasphemy laws still have a place in society? In a secular society, no. In a society that is based on a single homogeneous religion, that does not tolerate dissent? Sure why not. It keeps them from being hypocritical. In Ireland, I have no idea, not being that familiar with how homogeneous the culture of religion is. I gather it is close to 100% roman catholic, but I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/3 "2009-04-30T00:21:41Z")
Roman Catholic is the majority, but a huge number of these are lapsed or á-la-carte, and there are decent numbers of other religions. We have lots of Athiests, a load of Protestants, and about 2500 Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/4 "2009-04-30T00:42:35Z")
I’d say it’s the responsibility of every Irish citizen with half a brain to make it clear to their elected representatives to vote against such legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/5 "2009-04-30T00:45:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’d say it’s the responsibility of every Irish citizen with half a brain to make it clear to their elected representatives to vote against such legislation. Thats not how we do things. 🙂 Every Dail member will vote with their party, or have the Whip removed from them. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/6 "2009-04-30T01:35:12Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Thats not how we do things. 🙂 > Every Dail member will vote with their party, or have the Whip removed from them. That sounds much like the same system used by parties in every elective junta on Earth. I’m assuming that you meant that the Party Whip will arrange to remove/expel disloyal members from the party and thereby end their political careers? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/7 "2009-04-30T02:03:49Z")
> [@Aquila\_Be](#): > > That sounds much like the same system used by parties in every elective junta on Earth. > > I’m assuming that you meant that the Party Whip will arrange to remove/expel disloyal members from the party and thereby end their political careers? Thsi doesn’t necessarily end their political careers. People can have continuing careers as independent (non-party) politicians, or after a suitable interval the whip is restored. Plus, I think Laudenum oversimplifies a little. Government ministers have to pay attention to their own backbenchers; if a government policy is causing dissatisfaction, backbenchers do have the capacity to influence government policy. The result may be not that this measure is voted down in the parliamentary process, but that it is withdrawn or modified by the government before being voted on. Plus, in committee (which is where this measure is being introduced) the atmosphere is often a little less partisan; it’s not unusual for their to be quite open discussion, and some attempt to acheive consensus, when a bill is in committee. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/8 "2009-04-30T02:09:58Z")
A core requirement for a republic is the right to offend (and to be offended). When we criminalize ideas beyond the most basic (incitement, conspiracy…) issues wher said ideas directly cause the loss of life, liberty or property through the incitement or execution of deception, violence or theft, we inhibit the flow of ideas that otherwise enhance the life of the republic. Citizens need to learn how to process discord and conflict without using the state to punish each other for not keeping the “correct ideas” in the “correct box.” ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/9 "2009-04-30T02:37:41Z")
Isn’t blasphemy, or better, profanity, near the core of Irish speech? Or did any number of Irish authors lead me wrong? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/10 "2009-04-30T03:07:07Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > …So. Do dopers think that blasphemy laws still have a place in society? They have just as much a place as anti-witchcraft laws. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/11 "2009-04-30T03:36:37Z")
Some details about the law and it’s origins in the Constitution [http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0429/1224245599892.html](http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0429/1224245599892.html) I find the whole thing insulting and embarassing. The Government is incredibly unpopular at the moment. This may be a move to try and bolster it’s core Catholic vote before the local elections. If it is it won’t work. The economy is going to crush them. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/12 "2009-04-30T03:51:25Z")
It sounds like some of our locals (those with literally half a brain) have taken up residence and citizenship in Ireland. If such a law is passed, I think that all good Irish women and men should have a Blaspheme Day and hurl their insults under the windows of the office of the Justice, Equality and Law Reform Minister. > [@](#): > > **cerberus** : Citizens need to learn how to process discord and conflict without using the state to punish each other for not keeping the “correct ideas” in the “correct box.” Well said. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/13 "2009-04-30T06:22:30Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > This may be a move to try and bolster it’s core Catholic vote before the local elections. My suspicion is that it’s a quid pro quo for the civil partnership legislation, which is rather clearly being held up by the (still powerful) cultural right. What is amazing about this is that the Labour Party don’t seem to be opposing it, but simply tabling amendments to soften it and reduce the penalties. [QUOTE=UDS] Government ministers have to pay attention to their own backbenchers; if a government policy is causing dissatisfaction, backbenchers do have the capacity to influence government policy. [/quote] The Fianna Fáil backbench aren’t going to give a shit about this. If people want to put pressure on the Government it’s the Green TDs who need to be lobbied heavily. I don’t see this amendment going down well amongst the leafy liberal middle class they represent… and they did used to have an admirably strong civil liberties platform. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/14 "2009-04-30T11:29:19Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > So. Do dopers think that blasphemy laws still have a place in society? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/15 "2009-04-30T11:46:06Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > So. Do dopers think that blasphemy laws still have a place in society? They exist even if not written in the laws of the state. People are regularly ostracized and companies boycotted for what people take as blasphemy. So they do have a place, should they ave a place is another question. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/16 "2009-04-30T11:47:42Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > So. Do dopers think that blasphemy laws still have a place in society? No. Similarly I thought it was idiotic when the UN considered (or adopted, I forget) language that said respect for religion is a human right. This was largely done at the behest of countries that wanted to ignore most of the other human rights in order to enforce strict religious observance, of course. People have the right to practice their religions without fear of being persecuted or arrested. Blasphemy laws go far beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/17 "2009-04-30T15:48:07Z")
One man’s dogma is another’s blaspheme. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/18 "2009-04-30T16:41:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No. Similarly I thought it was idiotic when the UN considered (or adopted, I forget) language that said respect for religion is a human right. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights says > [@](#): > > Article 18. > Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance. which seems pretty reasonable to me. I can’t see who would have a problem with that. I would add that freedom of expression (speech) should also be pretty much universal except when it causes immediate and direct danger or similar urgent motives. I cannot see where something like a billboard saying “God does not exist” could be prohibited and I am quite sure the European commission on Human Rights would void any punishment for that. On the other hand if blasphemy is something grossly offensive with no redeeming value except the intended offense then I can see how it would not be permitted and I do not think it would be permitted in America either. In America you can get six years in jail for airing Hezbollah TV which is the American equivalent of blasphemy. > [@](#): > > [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090423/ap\_on\_re\_us/us\_terrorism\_tv\_1](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090423/ap_on_re_us/us_terrorism_tv_1) > > 6 years in prison for airing Hezbollah TV in NYC > > A Pakistani immigrant whom a prosecutor called “Hezbollah’s man in New York City” has been sentenced to nearly six years in prison for airing the Lebanese militant group’s television station. > > Javed Iqbal (jah-VED’ IK’-bahl) was ordered by a federal judge in Manhattan on Thursday to serve five years and nine months for putting the broadcasts of Al Manar among stations he sent to customers in New York. > > Prosecutor Eric Snyder says Iqbal helped the TV station get out Hezbollah’s message. He says the organization had killed more Americans than any other terrorist group before Sept. 11, 2001. > > Iqbal lawyer Josh Dratel says his client didn’t intend to aid Hezbollah as he tried to build his television station distribution company. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/19 "2009-04-30T17:16:54Z")
I’m in three minds about this : - one is that everyone should be allowed to say, promote, vote and enact _anything_. Anything less than that is nefarious. - one goes that while democracy is fine and dandy, a majority of people are absolute morons. Is antisemitism or fascism OK when it’s approved by the majority ? I didn’t think so. - the last one goes “If some thoughts cannot lead to good things, then it is necessary to punish those thoughts”. Which is, again, fine and dandy when applied to thought like Holocaust denial or stalinism, and much less fine when applied to criticism of religion, or criticism of stalinism. Cue first mind. On the whole, though, all three minds agree that the vagueness of the OP’s law is what makes it really WRONG. In all caps. You could basically prosecute any speach whatsoever under that law. “Blasphemy and sedition” pretty much encompasses any and all forms of dissent, doesn’t it ? ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790/20 "2009-04-30T17:50:45Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > So. Do dopers think that blasphemy laws still have a place in society? Absolutely not. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blasphemy-in-ireland/494790.md?page=2)