# Blind Nationalism: whose citizens are the most deluded **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 3, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685 "2016-08-03T20:48:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/61 "2016-08-10T19:22:42Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Its currently neither. Huh? šŸ˜• ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/62 "2016-08-10T23:46:25Z")
> [@XT](#): > > ETA: And you have obviously never seen how prickly or defensive the North Koreans can be. You should really educate yourself on that country before making even obviously flip and tongue in cheek comments like this, as it makes you look kind of foolish. Not that I donā€™t doubt you just came in here to bash on the US and were peeved that no one else was going for it. ā€¦the problem with the OP is that it is set up specifically so that the ā€œUS couldnā€™t count.ā€ If we just looked at the original comment without the qualifiers: ā€œFrom a very young age most citizens of various countries are brain washed into nationalistic fervour that usually follows the mantraā€¦my country is greatā€ then the US would more than qualify. From your creepy Pledge of Allegiance to the amount of flags you have waving the US is obviously an overly patriotic nation. You should educate yourself on how the US is perceived by people not indoctrinated by ā€œTeam USA!ā€ It isnā€™t fair to accuse people of ā€œbashing the USā€ when they are merely expressing their opinion. You really shouldnā€™t get all prickly and defensive about a little bit of criticism. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/63 "2016-08-11T03:02:12Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Its currently neither. Scotland has its problems, but the people of Scotland have political freedom, good health, a beautiful land, and a standard of living billions of people can only dream of. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/64 "2016-08-11T03:19:52Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Its currently neither. Neither developed nor prosperous? :dubious: I do think Scotland has some roads and trains and universities and hospitals and all that sort of thing, you know. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/65 "2016-08-11T09:13:17Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Your answer to the OP was the US, right? And you compared the US to North Korea wrt the OP, saying weā€™d give them a good run for their money ā€¦In the blind nationalism, not in _how_ shitty the country is. > [@](#): > > and knowing what the OP was askingā€¦right? Right. As I read the OP, it was not necessary that a country be the _absolute_ shittiest, just shitty in some ways that its citizens, on average, were clearly deluded about. Americans, [trailing](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/six-ways-america-is-like-a-third-world-country-20140305) on [many](http://www.salon.com/2015/07/10/11_things_the_rest_of_the_world_does_so_much_better_than_america_partner/) [lists](http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2056723,00.html) of criteria compared to other Western democracies, yet still convinced of their ā€œ[greatness](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=800044)ā€, certainly qualify. > [@](#): > > And you stand by it. Yes, I stand by my belief that Americans can give North Koreans a run for their money in blind nationalism. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/66 "2016-08-11T09:41:31Z")
Oh, and this: > [@XT](#): > > And you cherry picked the incarceration thing without any context Itā€™s not cherry-picking if youā€™re asked to give a criterion and you give one that fits the question. > [@](#): > > , as if incarceration in the US is exactly the same as incarceration in North Korea Did\* I \*say it was the same? > [@](#): > > (i.e. the reasons for incarceration are the same, :rolleyes: True - For one I believe the North Koreans are a lot less racist in their incarceration criteria. > [@](#): > > that the numbers for North Korea (or China) are the same level of certainty as those for the US I _specifically addressed_ the issue of relative certainty in my post, perhaps more reading, less kneejerking next time? > [@](#): > > (i.e. we actually believe the numbers they are giving out as accurate) What on Hasturā€™s Earth makes you think I was using the \*North Korean governmentā€™\*s numbers (_do_ they even give out numbers)? I was using the estimates put out by the decidedly _non_-pro-NK [HRNK ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/67 "2016-08-11T09:45:59Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > I do think Scotland has some roads and trains and universities and hospitals and all that sort of thing, you know. Gosh, roads and train, you say! Fancy! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/68 "2016-08-11T14:43:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > ā€¦the problem with the OP is that it is set up specifically so that the ā€œUS couldnā€™t count.ā€ > > If we just looked at the original comment without the qualifiers: ā€œFrom a very young age most citizens of various countries are brain washed into nationalistic fervour that usually follows the mantraā€¦my country is greatā€ then the US would more than qualify. From your creepy Pledge of Allegiance to the amount of flags you have waving the US is obviously an overly patriotic nation. > > You should educate yourself on how the US is perceived by people not indoctrinated by ā€œTeam USA!ā€ It isnā€™t fair to accuse people of ā€œbashing the USā€ when they are merely expressing their opinion. You really shouldnā€™t get all prickly and defensive about a little bit of criticism. Iā€™m pretty familiar with not only how Mr Dibble views the US but how people in other countries do. Iā€™d hazard to guess that Iā€™ve traveled at least as extensively outside of my country as you have outside of yours, and if you are a Brit or Canadian I most likely have spent more time in your country than you have in mineā€¦though maybe not, as I donā€™t know your personal details (and you probably donā€™t know mine either). So, while I appreciate your encouragement for me to educate myself I donā€™t really feel Iā€™m lacking in that regard. As to the rest, what I took exception to was a poster who routinely bashes the US when he can, and did so by basically cherry picking the OP for the parts he wanted to bash on the US over, knowing we didnā€™t meet the criteria laid out in the OP but wanting to bash away anywayā€¦because thatā€™s what he does. I didnā€™t write the OP, so your criticism of said OP is something between youā€¦I merely bothered to read it and then just glance at the responses. I wasnā€™t going to even answer until I saw Dibbleā€™s response and figured Iā€™d respond that the bash since it was so stupid. I wasnā€™t the only one who took exception. I have no problem with folks bashing on the US, in general, when we deserve it. If you want to write an OP about how creepy the US for itā€™s flags and patriotism Iā€™m sure youā€™ll get plenty of positive responses. I donā€™t fly a flag and I think some of the patriotism is over the top. Having traveled a lot, Iā€™ve seen lots of quirks, however, from different countriesā€¦this is just one of ours. There are probably half a dozen I could name that struck me, a Mexican America, as odd in other countries, including my own home country. [QUOTE=MrDibble] Itā€™s not cherry-picking if youā€™re asked to give a criterion and you give one that fits the question. [/QUOTE] Itā€™s cherry picking and you know it. Or you should, anyway. There is no comparison between US incarceration and North Korea. You say you have read up on the situation in North Korea, and Iā€™ll take you at your word. So, you should know better. If you donā€™t, then you donā€™t. > [@](#): > > True - For one I believe the North Koreans are a lot less racist in their incarceration criteria. šŸ˜› Considering that the vast majority of North Koreans are, you know, Korean, Iā€™d have to say that yes, you are correct. > [@](#): > > I specifically addressed the issue of relative certainty in my post, perhaps more reading, less kneejerking next time? Then you realize your point was built on sand. Why did you feel the need to make it in that case? > [@](#): > > What on Hasturā€™s Earth makes you think I was using the North Korean governmentā€™s numbers (do they even give out numbers)? Of course they put out numbersā€¦and those numbers effect even NGOā€™s and other organizations who try and estimate the actual numbers. Your numbers seemed low compared to ones Iā€™ve seen by other groups, so I assumed you were using the standard government (or state run media) ones. > [@](#): > > I was using the estimates put out by the decidedly non-pro-NK HRNK[ Fair enoughā€¦my apologies. Realize that even the ones from ā€˜non-pro-NKā€™ groups are estimates and still use as their base the government numbers since the government is beyond secretive about such things. > [@](#): > > Yes, I stand by my belief that Americans can give North Koreans a run for their money in blind nationalism. Sure, if you want to cherry pick the OP and just focus on this itā€™s fair enough. Might even be right if you look at it from the perspective of whether the nationalism is freely believed in or believed in because of the massive state-run propaganda machine that penetrates every portion of the average North Koreanā€™s life, backed by the iron fist and enforced by death camps for any not fervent enough, then yeahā€¦the US would give the North Koreans a run for their money wrt the general population. I get itā€¦you dislike the US. And you dislike Americans with their nationalism and patriotism and racism and all the other flawed -isms we have. Thatā€™s fineā€¦but you should really take Banquet Bearā€™s advice to me and educate yourself about nationalism in other countries and what it actually means and the implications of it. Youā€™ll find that the US, while certainly far ahead of our European brethren and sistren (for the most part) wrt ā€˜blind nationalismā€™, we donā€™t hold a candle to many other countries out there. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/69 "2016-08-11T14:53:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > True - For one I believe the North Koreans are a lot less racist in their incarceration criteria. Isnā€™t that like saying the KKK has a non-discrimination policy: All members have an equal opportunity for advancement, no matter what color they are? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/70 "2016-08-11T15:21:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > For one I believe the North Koreans are a lot less racist in their incarceration criteria. 99% of North Koreans = ethnic Korean, 99% of incarcerated in North Korea = ethnic Korean, soā€¦non-racist? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/71 "2016-08-11T17:16:33Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > Neither developed nor prosperous? :dubious: > > I do think Scotland has some roads and trains and universities and hospitals and all that sort of thing, you know. The Scottish economy has undergone massive deindustrialisation over the past 3 decades. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/72 "2016-08-11T17:56:26Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The Scottish economy has undergone massive deindustrialisation over the past 3 decades. Rendering it an ā€œundevelopedā€ country? Really? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/73 "2016-08-11T19:31:55Z")
Did yā€™all just miss the rolleyes before the racism bit, or are you just blind to sarcasm? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/74 "2016-08-11T19:38:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Did yā€™all just miss the rolleyes before the racism bit, or are you just blind to sarcasm? I think that we all took it that you were rolling your eyes at my post and that you actually thought you had a point there. If you want to indicate that your own post is sarcastic try putting the rolley eyed thingy AFTER your post. šŸ˜› Or maybe give a translation, since 3 of us didnā€™t get it the way you seemed to have meant it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/75 "2016-08-11T19:42:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Did yā€™all just miss the rolleyes before the racism bit, or are you just blind to sarcasm? It looked to me like you ā€œroll-eyedā€ the last comment, then made your own. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/76 "2016-08-11T20:13:27Z")
Yes, a sarcastic one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/77 "2016-08-11T20:18:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, a sarcastic one. We canā€™t tell you how you meant it-We can only tell you how we interpreted it. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/78 "2016-08-12T00:51:01Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The Scottish economy has undergone massive deindustrialisation over the past 3 decades. So has the English economy. So has the US economy, come to think of it. But the claim was not that Scotland is an industrialised country; itā€™s that itā€™s a developed country. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/79 "2016-08-12T01:03:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Iā€™m pretty familiar with not only how Mr Dibble views the US but how people in other countries do. Iā€™d hazard to guess that Iā€™ve traveled at least as extensively outside of my country as you have outside of yours, and if you are a Brit or Canadian I most likely have spent more time in your country than you have in mineā€¦though maybe not, as I donā€™t know your personal details (and you probably donā€™t know mine either). So, while I appreciate your encouragement for me to educate myself I donā€™t really feel Iā€™m lacking in that regard. > > As to the rest, what I took exception to was a poster who routinely bashes the US when he can, and did so by basically cherry picking the OP for the parts he wanted to bash on the US over, knowing we didnā€™t meet the criteria laid out in the OP but wanting to bash away anywayā€¦because thatā€™s what he does. I didnā€™t write the OP, so your criticism of said OP is something between youā€¦I merely bothered to read it and then just glance at the responses. I wasnā€™t going to even answer until I saw Dibbleā€™s response and figured Iā€™d respond that the bash since it was so stupid. I wasnā€™t the only one who took exception. > > I have no problem with folks bashing on the US, in general, when we deserve it. If you want to write an OP about how creepy the US for itā€™s flags and patriotism Iā€™m sure youā€™ll get plenty of positive responses. I donā€™t fly a flag and I think some of the patriotism is over the top. Having traveled a lot, Iā€™ve seen lots of quirks, however, from different countriesā€¦this is just one of ours. There are probably half a dozen I could name that struck me, a Mexican America, as odd in other countries, including my own home country. ā€¦people post in IMHO threads to express their humble opinion: which is what MrDibble did. You may disagree with his opinion, but so what? That doesnā€™t make you right. This isnā€™t a debate forum and Iā€™m not going to debate your opinions here. You are welcome to express your wrong opinion here, as is everyone else. IMHO if you want to debate their opinion you take it to Great Debates. IMHO if you want to personalise things, (which is absolutely clear in your response to me you have issues with MrDibbles posts) then you should take it to the pit. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/80 "2016-08-12T03:01:36Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Indian citizens have a pretty good case for being ā€œgreatā€, they are the largest democracy, a world (nuclear) military power, , and by pretty much every metric their peopleā€™s lives have improves incredibly over the last 80 years. > > I would say there North Koreans have (unfortunately for their citizens) no competition in this regard. While I am sure not everyone is 100% on board with the propaganda, I am equally sure your average citizen is, to some degree. 1. They were improving from a really, really low base. They were behind much of Africa at independence, and today theyā€™ve improved to have a HDI _almost_ equivalent to the poorest parts of Central America or Central Asia. 2. ā€˜Largest democracyā€™ is mostly a function of population size (which isnā€™t an inherently good or bad thing, although Indian levels of population density are almost certainly a bad thing). In any case a lot of Indians arenā€™t particularly enthused with democracy. This is 20 years ago and things may have changed, but as of 1996 a poll indicated that most Indians would prefer their country be run by the military. 3. Since when is possessing weapons of mass destruction something to be proud of? Iā€™m (unhappily) an American, and would much prefer that my country didnā€™t possess weapons nuclear, chemical or biological. That we own them (and are the only country ever to have used them) is to our shame, not our credit. As to the OP, Nigeria might qualify (as would India), but Iā€™m not sure how ā€˜patrioticā€™ Nigerians are: I mention them because they rank very high on ā€˜happinessā€™ surveys, but it may be that Nigerians identify more with family or community than with their country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685.md?page=5)