# Blind Nationalism: whose citizens are the most deluded **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 3, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685 "2016-08-03T20:48:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/81 "2016-08-12T18:06:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …people post in IMHO threads to express their humble opinion: which is what MrDibble did. You may disagree with his opinion, but so what? That doesn’t make you right. This isn’t a debate forum and I’m not going to debate your opinions here. You are welcome to express your wrong opinion here, as is everyone else. > > IMHO if you want to debate their opinion you take it to Great Debates. IMHO if you want to personalise things, (which is absolutely clear in your response to me you have issues with MrDibbles posts) then you should take it to the pit. Fair enough…I don’t post in this forum all that much so my apologies if I’m going against the grain. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/82 "2016-08-12T21:02:11Z")
This thread is hilarious. Americans are \*not \*nationalistic zealots, American patriotic ardour is simply a recognition of the \*obvious \*facts, and anyone who impugns either is a filthy foreign communist who doesn’t argue fair! USA! [:: places hand on heart, salutes flag ::](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=801087) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/83 "2016-08-12T21:09:15Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > This thread is hilarious. Americans are \*not \*nationalistic zealots, American patriotic ardour is simply a recognition of the \*obvious \*facts, and anyone who impugns either is a filthy foreign communist who doesn’t argue fair! USA! [:: places hand on heart, salutes flag ::](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=801087) There is certainly enough straw to build an army of strawmen with this sort of post. Perhaps you were reading a different thread than I am, but I don’t see anyone making this argument…except you. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/84 "2016-08-12T21:10:01Z")
I mean, all that shit about a “flag code”. Most grown-up countries don’t have a flag code because they’re not festooned in jingoistic bunting. I can drive all day here and not see a New Zealand flag, because why would anyone fly one? We know where we live. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/85 "2016-08-12T21:25:19Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > I mean, all that shit about a “flag code”. Most grown-up countries don’t have a flag code because they’re not festooned in jingoistic bunting. I can drive all day here and not see a New Zealand flag, because why would anyone fly one? We know where we live. What thread are you reading?? The only use of ‘flag code’ I can find in this thread is your use of it in this post. Who is saying ‘Americans are not nationalistic zealots, American patriotic ardour is simply a recognition of the obvious facts, and anyone who impugns either is a filthy foreign communist who doesn’t argue fair! USA!’ or anything close to this in the thread?? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/86 "2016-08-12T23:03:07Z")
[The fact that you even feel the need to have one:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code) I mean, what part of > [@](#): > > In a parade, the flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle, railroad train, or boat. When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender. is not lunatic idolatry? That and indoctrinating your children to swear a loyalty oath to the state each morning: \*\*Mister Dibble \*\*is right, that’s some North Korean shit there. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/87 "2016-08-13T00:04:26Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > I mean, all that shit about a “flag code”. Most grown-up countries don’t have a flag code because they’re not festooned in jingoistic bunting. [Rules and Protocols](http://www.mch.govt.nz/nz-identity-heritage/rules-protocols) [Displaying the New Zealand Flag](http://www.mch.govt.nz/nz-identity-heritage/flags/displaying-new-zealand-flag) [Flying the New Zealand Flag](http://www.mch.govt.nz/nz-identity-heritage/flags/flying-new-zealand-flag) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/88 "2016-08-13T01:49:11Z")
Right. Private citizens in most countries may not display their national flags as routinely as Americans do–though they’ll wave it fervently enough at certain international sporting events–but pretty much everybody is going to have some form of flag code. It’s part of the standard trappings of a modern state, like a constitution or an anthem. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/89 "2016-08-13T03:10:38Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > [Rules and Protocols](http://www.mch.govt.nz/nz-identity-heritage/rules-protocols) > [Displaying the New Zealand Flag](http://www.mch.govt.nz/nz-identity-heritage/flags/displaying-new-zealand-flag) > [Flying the New Zealand Flag](http://www.mch.govt.nz/nz-identity-heritage/flags/flying-new-zealand-flag) Yeah, I was reading that before. It was news to me that we even had one, mostly because you so seldom see a flag. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/90 "2016-08-13T04:01:23Z")
**MrDibble** , just out of curiosity, and no sarcasm intended, but have you ever been to the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/91 "2016-08-13T04:27:10Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Yeah, I was reading that before. It was news to me that we even had one, mostly because you so seldom see a flag. You should fly it more - the Union Jack and Southern Cross combination is way cool! And it sounds like your concept of “Americans” is 100% derived from Fawlty Towers - get some new stereotypes, dude… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/92 "2016-08-13T07:37:43Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **MrDibble** , just out of curiosity, and no sarcasm intended, but have you ever been to the U.S.? Nope. Interacted with plenty of US citizens outside it, though. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/93 "2016-08-13T08:27:09Z")
> [@Nansbread1](#): > > From a very young age most citizens of various countries are brain washed into nationalistic fervour that usually follows the mantra…my country is great. > > Quite clearly some countries are very terrible places to live in. Yet their citizens demonstrate great love for their land. Hence they are possibly deluded. > > If a league table were to be made of countries who have practically nothing going for them…yet their citizens are brazenly nationalistic…who will top that table? > > I will leave out war torn countries like Syria, Iraq etc as their misfortunes have been recent and they were once beautiful places. > > I suggest India. Rampant poverty, lack of civic sense, dirty and unplanned cities. Over crowded etc etc. Yet their citizens will without hesitation call their country great. Just about every country in world people have pride and love for their country. Some countries more than other countries. Most of all pride and love for the country is mostly culture and group bonds of country than country it self. Take away the people and the culture and there would be no pride and love for their country. Some countries can get caught up on good education, really good health care and low poverty. Yea my country ace at this talk!! But if the person hates the culture and the people there would be no ride and love for the country. Even if really good education, really good health care and low poverty. If some alien from planet XR send I can take you to planet XR you get awesome education, star trek awesome health care and live to age 5,000!! And no such thing as poor and poverty here!! But you have no social bond with aliens and you hate the culture you have no pride and love for there country. You may even say take me back home Humans evolution is base on culture and social bonds. If you where in black box and could not have access to people or any culture or culture that is really alien to you. Well you will really have bad experience. Cities and landmarks may be good but if you hate the culture and no social bonds it does not better if you really like the Cities and landmarks of that country. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/94 "2016-08-13T16:45:04Z")
I lived the first 35 years of my life in the USA, and the past decade or so in Ireland, so I think I’m qualified to at least compare those two nations vis-a-vis “blind nationalism”. Hands down, no doubt, the USA is _waaaay_ more jingoistic and rah-rah nationalist than Ireland. About the only time I see Irish flags are during the Euros/World Cup/Olympics. In America, not only would most places of business routinely fly the flag, so would a significant minority of private households. That’s not even getting into the whole issue of bumper stickers (topic for another thread - I mean, seriously? who else does this besides Americans?). And that Pledge of Allegiance bullshit is some seriously creepy stuff. I remember even as a kid being a bit freaked out by it. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/95 "2016-08-13T19:18:01Z")
People can have whatever opinion they want of other countries. It’s a ‘free world’ in this repsect: in few if any countries AFAIK is it not allowed to bash other countries, even in ones where it isn’t allowed to express a negative view of one’s own country. But, the stuff about US pledge of allegiance or flag etiquette being unique or only comparable to North Korea is complete nonsense. What this is is Brits or occasionally Canadians or Aussies, who have a particular bug up their ass about the US. It’s some kind of sibling rivalry dynamic among English speaking countries, ignoring the rest of the world. For example, in South Korea there’s also a great deal of reverence to symbols of the nation, standing for national anthem at movies, etc. more than in the US, and highly socially unacceptable to speak against it in contrast to it having long been somewhat cool and counter culture-y to do so in the US. However is South Korea a country ‘with nothing going for it’? Obviously not, just as the US obviously isn’t either. And do any Brit/Commonwealth bug-up-the-ass-about-US types give any non-US example like that? No, because the bug up their ass is about the US. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Lester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lester)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/96 "2016-08-13T20:02:38Z")
I’m Australian and athough the lifestyle isn’t bad for straight out delusion we have to be at the top of any list. An island nation (no need for walls here) blessed with mines and beaches. Sport, facebook and partying our current opiate for the masses. When we do occasionally sober up enough to consider our place in the world or vote. The general consensus is shit might happen in other places but we didnt cause it and it would be unAustralian to let it effect any of our BBQ’s. Polititions and big media reinforce this position daily. Don’t believe me checkout how we treat refugees who venture into our waters by boat. ie. Lock them (men, women and children) away for years off-shore in subhuman conditions exposed to regular sexual, physical and mental abuse. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/97 "2016-08-14T20:39:26Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > I lived the first 35 years of my life in the USA, and the past decade or so in Ireland, so I think I’m qualified to at least compare those two nations vis-a-vis “blind nationalism”. > > Hands down, no doubt, the USA is _waaaay_ more jingoistic and rah-rah nationalist than Ireland. About the only time I see Irish flags are during the Euros/World Cup/Olympics. In America, not only would most places of business routinely fly the flag, so would a significant minority of private households. That’s not even getting into the whole issue of bumper stickers (topic for another thread - I mean, seriously? who else does this besides Americans?). > > And that Pledge of Allegiance bullshit is some seriously creepy stuff. I remember even as a kid being a bit freaked out by it. So you saying people in Ireland and the UK are not into the flag thing like people in the US? Does your culture think it is trashing or some thing to have flag or bumper sticker? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/98 "2016-08-14T21:17:19Z")
Back to the OP. He mentions India and Indians. Well it’s no wonder they are big on themselves. Indian is more than just a country, it is a “race” of people with a distinct identity. Indians look different. Now you might hate the current government of the country or the state that country is in economically (like I’m sure many Koreans do), but its still yours. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/99 "2016-08-14T21:18:33Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > So you saying people in Ireland and the UK are not into the flag thing like people in the US? > > Does your culture think it is trashing or some thing to have flag or bumper sticker? It’s just not a common thing to fly the flag: offhand, in all of my daily travels about Auckland, I can only recall one New Zealand flag that’s being flown. It’s not that we’re ashamed of it, at ANZAC ceremonies and international events, sure, you’ll see it flown but from day to day, well, we know where we live, we don’t need reminding: it’s like having a sign in every room at home saying I LIVE HERE. And to be honest, that sort of overt patriotism is scorned as American zealotry. There was a referendum here a while back about whether or not to change the flag, and there were a few entrenched groups like the RSA {old soldier’s association} who harrumphed about it being our national symbol, a few people rallied around some frankly fairly dreadful alternative designs, but for the most part New Zealanders sighed, rolled their eyes, and wondered if the government couldn’t spend the money on something more useful. And, as it happens, the _staus quo_ won out comfortably. Now try to picture the _furor Americanus_ if your current president mooted changing the US flag: you’d all be out shooting each other in the streets. Well, shooting each other in the streets more. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/100 "2016-08-14T21:39:12Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > While Russia has a lot going for it by some measures, its political system and leadership are awful. > > Yet its citizens seem easy prey to appeals to nationalism, and excuses that Russia’s troubles are due to malevolent outside forces. Irony isn’t your strong suit, either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685.md?page=6)