# Blind Nationalism: whose citizens are the most deluded **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 3, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685 "2016-08-03T20:48:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/121 "2016-08-16T06:15:23Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, our rightful place is with the schoolyard bullies? Yes > [@](#): > > Most? Really? The source for good? Seriously? Since that wasn’t what I wrote, no, not seriously. > [@](#): > > 😛 Yep, that’s pretty much been the level of response from you so far, just more explicit. > [@](#): > > Don’t get out much, do you? I’m certainly wider-travelled than the average American. > [@](#): > > I don’t see it as tu quoque, but YMMV MM Varied > [@](#): > > …just pointing out that American’s don’t have a monopoly on this, and if you are going to ding us you should probably check the mote in your own eye and backyard first. i.e _tu quoque_. Which is a failure to respond to actual substance. > [@](#): > > Well, China is in much the same boat as North Korea…for much the same reasons. Right…that addresses the _rate_, how? > [@](#): > > Though I’d guess their death rate is at least slightly lower than North Korea…though, you have the added bonus that in China when you are arrested for political reasons you could be donating your organs to the good of your fellow (rich) people who obviously need them more. That’s terrible, but has absolutely nothing to do with my point. Also, I noticed you blithely skipped past India… > [@](#): > > _sigh_ And they are both humans…and both drink water! So, obviously they are exactly the same! If the topic was “humans” they’d be equivalent, yes. here, it’s “incarceration rates”. Not “prison brutality” or “dystopias” or whatever strawman you’d _prefer_ distracting the conversation to. > [@](#): > > I’m not the one tenatiously sticking to a ridiculous comparison, dude. I’m not the one keeping on trying to argue against a strawman, fella. > [@](#): > > And if you were comparing the US to, say, France you might have a point. France isn’t the closest competitor to the US by incarceration rate, why would I bring them up? > [@](#): > > As it is you don’t, however. It IS spin…and you know it is. There’s no “spin” to the plain numbers. > [@](#): > > Then I’m giving you too much credit for knowing what’s going on in North Korea…or in the US for that matter. I know, I just don’t see it as relevant to the actual statistic. > [@](#): > > And you get this deep insight from your years spent living and traveling in and through the entire US, no doubt. 😛 As well as your extensive travels to North Korea, China, India and all around the world. You seem to be able to comment about North Korea, China and India just fine. Must be American Exceptionalism at work again… > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Who says everyone ignores it? :dubious: Plenty of people here recognize it and all three are big issues. Is “here” America or the Dope? Because the two populations are very different in this. > [@](#): > > I have no problem when someone criticizes the U.S. – I do it myself all the time. Comparing us to North fucking Korea? Then don’t lock up more people than they do. Would you prefer I use, say, number of days of guaranteed maternity leave?Then you get compared to Papua New guinea > [@](#): > > Dude, of course people are going to be “prickly”. People tend to get that way when you insult them. Yes, it’s prickly if someone points out cold numbers to you and your immediate response isn’t “That’s terrible” but rather “You can’t use that particular set of numbers because they hurt our feelz” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/122 "2016-08-16T14:16:14Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] France isn’t the closest competitor to the US by incarceration rate, why would I bring them up? [/QUOTE] Because France would be a more apples to apples comparison to the US justice system, since they have a similar (and less arbitrary) legal system. Comparing the US to North Korea or China based solely on the numbers is silly. But you want to keep going there so keep on keeping on. > [@](#): > > There’s no “spin” to the plain numbers. The numbers without context are absolutely spin because the numbers don’t tell the story, nor do they give any of that context to who is being imprisoned, why they are being imprisoned or under what conditions they are being imprisoned. Maybe I really AM giving you too much credit, since I shouldn’t have to spell this out, but perhaps you just can’t grasp why any of that stuff is important if you are going to compare systems. > [@](#): > > You seem to be able to comment about North Korea, China and India just fine. Must be American Exceptionalism at work again… Well, except I spent 2 years in India working for one of their Telco companies and about a year and a half in Hong Kong. I’ve also been repeatedly back to India for smaller engagements as well as mainland China both southern and northern…and my son’s partner is from southern China. So the only country I can’t say I’ve personally visited is North Korea…and it wouldn’t do me much good if I had, since they are so secretive and paranoid. How about you? What’s your vast experience with the US, China, India or North Korea? > [@](#): > > Also, I noticed you blithely skipped past India… I just didn’t have anything to say about them. They have a VERY low rate per 100k (like 20-30 IIRC), which is even below most European country and not anywhere near the US. As far as I know they don’t arbitrarily arrest people simply for posting on a message board about the government or just being accused of talking bad about the government, don’t have a series of brutal gulags and don’t carve their prisoners up for spare parts after they execute them on trumped up charges. It has it’s flaws, but it’s not comparable (either) to either China or North Korea, so you could certainly compare it to the US with the US coming out less favorably. Had you done THAT I probably wouldn’t have even gotten into this thread. Actual criticisms with some sort of basis in reality about the US I’m perfectly fine with. Trying to say you are making an apples to apples comparison between the US and North Korea (or China) based on straight numbers is ridiculous, and the fact you keep on just takes you further down the bunny trail. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/123 "2016-08-16T15:43:07Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Because France would be a more apples to apples comparison It’s incarceration rate - it’s _all_ apples. > [@](#): > > The numbers without context are absolutely spin because the numbers don’t tell the story So you keep saying - I’m saying the numbers themselves tell a story. It’s just not one that you seem to want told. > [@](#): > > Well, except I spent 2 years in India working for one of their Telco companies and about a year and a half in Hong Kong. I’ve also been repeatedly back to India for smaller engagements as well as mainland China both southern and northern…and my son’s partner is from southern China. Aah, so your take on Chinese and Indian prison rates is an informed one. I guess. > [@](#): > > So the only country I can’t say I’ve personally visited is North Korea…and it wouldn’t do me much good if I had, since they are so secretive and paranoid. …but you know it well enough to be _sure_ HRNK’s numbers are off. > [@](#): > > How about you? What’s your vast experience with the US, China, India or North Korea? I’ve only visited India, and fleetingly. Not that it matters for a discussion like this, as I’m not claiming anything that experience in-country would contribute to. > [@](#): > > I just didn’t have anything to say about them. So would you say you … cherry picked … the examples you replied to? :dubious: > [@](#): > > Had you done THAT I probably wouldn’t have even gotten into this thread. Sure, buddy, whatever you say. > [@](#): > > Actual criticisms with some sort of basis in reality about the US I’m perfectly fine with. The “actual criticism” here is that America imprisons too great a proportion of its citizens, and does so along racist lines. Note that the only comparisons I’ve made about the US and North Korea are the incarceration rates and levels if citizen delusion, nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/124 "2016-08-16T16:29:07Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] It’s incarceration rate - it’s all apples. [/QUOTE] So, let’s take the US out of the picture for a second. You are seriously telling me that the incarceration rate between, say, France and North Korea are the same? That the same basic numbers apply equally? :dubious: > [@](#): > > So you keep saying - I’m saying the numbers themselves tell a story. It’s just not one that you seem to want told. No, the numbers don’t tell the story. Good grief, it’s hard for me to believe you think this way. That you think that arresting someone for armed robbery is the same as arresting them because they said something bad about the government that the government doesn’t like. Or arresting someone because they do falun gong or are a house Christian or are a Weiger or a Tibatan is the same as arresting someone because they raped or murdered someone. Because, you know, it’s just numbers man and they are all the same! I mean, they are all humans after all, so must be exactly equivalent! :smack: > [@](#): > > Aah, so your take on Chinese and Indian prison rates is an informed one. I guess. More informed, apparently, than your own, since you are basically going by a simple number, context being meaningless to you. > [@](#): > > …but you know it well enough to be sure HRNK’s numbers are off. I think I’ve read enough to know which numbers are in the WAG ball park and which aren’t, yes. Supposedly you have too, though that becomes less clear to me the longer this ridiculous side discussion drags on. > [@](#): > > I’ve only visited India, and fleetingly. Not that it matters for a discussion like this, as I’m not claiming anything that experience in-country would contribute to. Fair enough, though you seem to require that from me. > [@](#): > > So would you say you … cherry picked … the examples you replied to? Why no…I’d say EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. Which is that I simply didn’t think to mention them at that time in the discussion. I did after you pointed it out. So, would you say you are at the…nit picking…stage of the discussion now? 😛 I focused on North Korea because YOU were the one trying to make the idiotic comparison between North Korea and the US based solely on the number of people incarcerated. If you wanted to talk about the US incarceration rate as an issue, I’d probably either not have entered the thread or came in the chime in my agreement that it’s an issue. Instead, you decided to jump the shark. Your knee was just jerking too much about the juicy chance to bash the US based on a ridiculous comparison, instead of a meaningful criticism. > [@](#): > > Sure, buddy, whatever you say. 😛 Guess we shall never know, though I think my past posting history bears this up pretty well, if you’d ever bothered to read what I wrote before. I have plenty of my own criticisms of the US, and there is a lot that’s wrong with this country. In comparison to European countries our incarceration rate is off the charts. Our crime rate in general is off the charts of most industrialized nations. > [@](#): > > The “actual criticism” here is that America imprisons too great a proportion of its citizens, and does so along racist lines. Note that the only comparisons I’ve made about the US and North Korea are the incarceration rates and levels if citizen delusion, nothing else. I think the crime rate in the US is off the charts, and that this is more a class/economics thing than strictly racial (though there are definitely racial components still heavily involved). Since some minority groups are over represented in the poorer socio-economic levels (blacks and hispanics), they are also over represented in arrests and incarceration. This is definitely a problem in the US, and one we don’t seem able to solve easily. Personally, I think a focus on addressing poverty instead of various wars on drugs or crime or whatever would do a lot more towards alleviating the issue. I don’t think that most Americans are unaware of crime, racism, poverty or any of the rest as an issue. They are just divided in how to fix the problem, and we are at such an impasse today, politically, that it’s hard to see a way forward. This isn’t delusion, it’s deadlock. Though certainly anyone voting for or even listening to the Trumpster has some (high) level of delusion going on… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/125 "2016-08-16T20:43:58Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, let’s take the US out of the picture for a second. You are seriously telling me that the incarceration rate between, say, France and North Korea are the same? What? No? Why on earth would I say something that is so obviously not true? > [@](#): > > No, the numbers don’t tell the story. Good grief, it’s hard for me to believe you think this way. That you think that arresting someone for armed robbery is the same as arresting them because they said something bad about the government that the government doesn’t like. You think North Korea wouldn’t imprison armed robbers too? The US equivalent of the North Korean dissident isn’t an armed robber, it’s the black hood dealer serving a minimum of 5 years for a gram of crack when a white yuppie would skate on 99 grams of coke. Or whoops, only 18 grams now… poor oppressed cokeheads… > [@](#): > > More informed, apparently, than your own, since you are basically going by a simple number, context being meaningless to you. Not meaningless. Irrelevant. > [@](#): > > I think I’ve read enough to know which numbers are in the WAG ball park and which aren’t, yes. Supposedly you have too, though that becomes less clear to me the longer this ridiculous side discussion drags on. Takes two to continue a conversation. Feel free to quit anytime if it’s that ridiculous to you. > [@](#): > > Fair enough, though you seem to require that from me. Erm, no, dear, you played the “what ‘deep insight’ do _you_ have” card first. I didn’t require jack from you until you brought it up. > [@](#): > > Why no…I’d say EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. Which is that I simply didn’t think to mention them at that time in the discussion. As you say. > [@](#): > > I did after you pointed it out. My point exactly. > [@](#): > > So, would you say you are at the…nit picking…stage of the discussion now? I thought I started out cherry picking. That’s what _you_ said, at any rate. > [@](#): > > I focused on North Korea because YOU were the one trying to make the idiotic comparison between North Korea and the US based solely on the number of people incarcerated. It’s not “based on”, it _is_ the comparison. The only concrete one I made between the two countries (not their citizens) > [@](#): > > If you wanted to talk about the US incarceration rate as an issue, I’d probably either not have entered the thread or came in the chime in my agreement that it’s an issue. Instead, you decided to jump the shark. Your knee was just jerking too much about the juicy chance to bash the US based on a ridiculous comparison, instead of a meaningful criticism. I didn’t compare North Korea and the US, I compared North Koreans and Americans. You don’t seem to be able to tell the difference. > [@](#): > > 😛 Guess we shall never know, though I think my past posting history bears this up pretty well, if you’d ever bothered to read what I wrote before. I’m familiar with your work. > [@](#): > > In comparison to European countries our incarceration rate is off the charts. …but that’s OK, they’re all hardened career criminals, right? > [@](#): > > This isn’t delusion, it’s deadlock. Though certainly anyone voting for or even listening to the Trumpster has some (high) level of delusion going on… Like I said - that’s 40% of your voting public. A number high enough that “delusional” seems to fit just fine to me. But pass it off with another :p, there’s a persuasive rebuttal… ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/126 "2016-08-19T18:06:10Z")
First, I would challenge the OP’s premise that there are countries that are terrible to live in but their residents think it’s great. This impression might come from the veneer that the country’s government tries to put on. North Korea is probably a good example. I have never visited the country but I can’t believe everybody there literally believes all the government’s bullshit or thinks they live in a great country. I am American and I think Americans are deluded about their country’s greatness. The sad thing is that they are not brainwashed, they are deluding themselves. They believe what they choose to believe and are often ignorant about the world around them. [This video is a dramatization](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjMqda19wk) that helps make this point. The U.S. isn’t a terrible country, but the gap between it’s citizens’ perceptions of its greatness and its actual stature are striking. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685/127 "2016-08-19T20:21:52Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > First, I would challenge the OP’s premise that there are countries that are terrible to live in but their residents think it’s great. This impression might come from the veneer that the country’s government tries to put on. North Korea is probably a good example. I have never visited the country but I can’t believe everybody there literally believes all the government’s bullshit or thinks they live in a great country. That SOUNDS so logical… and yet it’s probably wrong. American reporters who visit North Korea tend to come away saying, "You know, even in countries that ostensibly hate the USA, I always found people were curious about us. Even when Mao ruled China and Brezhnev ruled Russia, ordinary people would approach us and ask us about America. They all knew their governments’ official lines were nonsense. In Iran, even though everyone pays lip service to the ayatollahs, people will relax and let their hair down around us when they know nobody’s watching. But in North Korea, nobody ever lets down his guard, and nobody ever expresses any curiosity. If anybody in Pyongyang has ANY doubts about the government’s propaganda, they keep it very well hidden." [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blind-nationalism-whose-citizens-are-the-most-deluded/761685.md?page=6)