LOL. Point well made.
All that does is give you an impression of some U.S. citizens – NOT the country itself. People tend to get a little testy when you compare their home to a communist dictatorship. Imagine that. There’s a lot more to the U.S. than the Pledge or the flag.
Well, you may, also, as a country, have a slight media presence…
…but that’s not “prickly” , oh no :rolleyes:
I haven’t said any different.
The point was strictly how deluded Americans are about their country’s place in the world.
Commenting on how a lot of Americans’ blind nationalism overlooks your racist justice system, shitty healthcare and very spotty global activity record doesn’t take away from all the things America is genuinely great at, like tech innovation, entertainment etc.
But it’s a sure sign of blind nationalism that any criticism of the US at all, or of American jingoism, is treated as blanket condemnation. An impulse to defencd one’s country isn’t a bad impulse, I do it all the time when people spout off about South Africa in a way that clearly indicates they have no idea about the facts on the ground. But note - no-one has disputed US incarceration rates, or the racist nature of same. There’s no misperception on my part there - you do incarcerate a stupidly large amount of people, and you do so on racist lines. People just argued whether the US was or wasn’t second to North Korea (by trying to discredit HRNK’s numbers by implying they’re based on NK government numbers when they are actually based on defector testimony) all the while never questioning that being just behind NK in incarceration rates is itself a terrible thing.
Penfeather expanded on this quite well, but just to add to what was said - no, they aren’t. Full stop.
I can’t speak for the British, but the vast majority of Irish cars have naked (:eek:;)) bumpers. There is no cultural imperative here to tell every stranger whom you encounter what your political/religious/social beliefs are. In a similar vein, we also don’t have vanity plates. Checking that Wiki link, I see that the UK does allow them, which is a surprise to me, as in all my years of seeing Northern Irish license plates down here, I can’t recall having ever seen a personalized one.
I would add to this list the way many Americans seem deluded that theirs is the “freest” nation on God’s green earth when it comes to public speech. Y’all should try listening to Irish talk radio after the 9pm watershed* sometime - no bleeping for naughty words that might make baby Jesus cry. Only illegal/libellous speech is censored there. Otherwise, you can say whatever the fuck you want!
*The 9pm watershed is an informal one, and not actually delineated by Irish statute.
In Britain its quite rare to see any building that isnt a government property or a hotel fly the Union Flag. You may see it, or one of the national flags more often during a sporting event, and you will see the Saltire flown a lot in Scotland. But generally no we dont do the whole flag worship shit. I remember a thread on here years ago, I think it was discussing the ‘Most disgusting thing’ The OP had ever seen, that vile thing was a tattered stars and stripes flying… Now be as nationalistic as you like but if thats the most digusting thing you have ever seen, well you must be wearing some quality blinkers.
I’ve seen the Last Night of the Proms and that’s pretty much a three-hour orgy of British patriotism, with lots of flag-waving.
But it looks to be a great deal of fun.
And Brits regularly have events centered around Elizabeth and her family (the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham Palace and so forth). That’s pretty much the same as the “whole flag worship shit” you referred to above.
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
The point was strictly how deluded Americans are about their country’s place in the world.
[/QUOTE]
In your honest opinion, what is our ‘country’s place in the world’? Back of the bus? How are most (many? all?) American’s deluded about whatever ‘place’ we/they think we are?
I doubt many American’s are in fact deluded about our justice system, that racism is an ongoing problem in the US, about our health care or most of the other issues. You have but to look at this message board to see Americans discussing all of these and more issues, and it’s not like no other American’s are aware of them. Are some American’s, especially from rural areas (but not exclusively there) in denial or deluded about some of those issues? You bet. But you can’t name me a country where the same isn’t true, especially in rural areas.
It’s apples to orangutans. The US certainly does incarcerate a lot of people…and we have a huge population that spans a continent. Most American’s who go to prison do so because they break the law…and most of those laws that are broken have to do in some way or another with the drug war. Is that stupid? Sure is. But, in North Korea you can be arrested for a staggering number of things…or no reason at all. Most of them are politically oriented. And those that won’t get you killed immediately will get you such extreme hard labor that I’ve seen estimates ranging up to 40% death rate…and mind, this isn’t for those executed outright but for those actually in the prison system. There simply isn’t any comparison and you continue to make yourself look foolish by attempting to make the connection…at least to anyone (like yourself) who knows better and isn’t just looking for a knee jerk bash on the US. Simply comparing the numbers and saying that the US has more prisoners than North Korea in absolute terms or even as a percentage of the population is just spin. You know it…and I know it. And anyone who knows anything about the reality knows it.
As for flag waving and leaving aside the cherry picking in the OP, I still don’t think the US is NUMBER 1!! Though certainly we have a lot of citizens that have flags…I would guess maybe 1 in 100 houses in my neighborhood have a flag out all the time, and maybe 1 in 10 put one out on the 4th of July. That’s a lot more than I’ve seen in other countries I’ve visited. I think that your and others impression of our citizens all having flags out or fervently pledging allegiance to the flag is a bit overblown, and you will see more of that in more rural areas than in the cities, but it’s certainly a point where American’s diverge from other countries.
Is that where the schoolyard bullies usually cluster?
Most Americans I’ve ever met or interacted with are deluded that America is some force for good in the world, for one thing.
At least 40% of you are (that’s the current Republican following, AFAIK)
Tu quoque? Really?
India and China also have huge populations spanning large areas. Where do they rank relative to the US?
Of course there is - are they locked up or not?
I’m not the one resorting to ad hominem as a defence, guy.
Not in my view - it totally says something about a nation, that it would lock up so many, and with racist bias. That’s not spin, that’s facts.
I know no such thing.
I didn’t say I had the impression Americans were all fervent flag wavers. My views of American blind nationalism are way past such window dressing. I’m not talking about mummery, I’m talking about fundamentals like who you vote for as a nation, where and when you send your armies, who you think you have the right to lock up in extraterritorial gulags, etc. Real who-you-are-inside as a nation stuff.
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
Is that where the schoolyard bullies usually cluster?
[/QUOTE]
So, our rightful place is with the schoolyard bullies?
Most? Really? The source for good? Seriously?
Don’t get out much, do you? I don’t see it as tu quoque, but YMMV…just pointing out that American’s don’t have a monopoly on this, and if you are going to ding us you should probably check the mote in your own eye and backyard first.
Well, China is in much the same boat as North Korea…for much the same reasons. Though I’d guess their death rate is at least slightly lower than North Korea…though, you have the added bonus that in China when you are arrested for political reasons you could be donating your organs to the good of your fellow (rich) people who obviously need them more.
sigh And they are both humans…and both drink water! So, obviously they are exactly the same!
I’m not the one tenatiously sticking to a ridiculous comparison, dude.
And if you were comparing the US to, say, France you might have a point. As it is you don’t, however. It IS spin…and you know it is. But you will just keep on with this no matter how ridiculous it is, so there doesn’t seem much point continuing. Only reason I came back is because you decided to double down on the silly and I figured I’d address it.
Then I’m giving you too much credit for knowing what’s going on in North Korea…or in the US for that matter.
And you get this deep insight from your years spent living and traveling in and through the entire US, no doubt. As well as your extensive travels to North Korea, China, India and all around the world.
Who says everyone ignores it? :dubious: Plenty of people here recognize it and all three are big issues.
I have no problem when someone criticizes the U.S. – I do it myself all the time. Comparing us to North fucking Korea? Dude, of course people are going to be “prickly”. People tend to get that way when you insult them.
You haven’t seen patriotism until you’ve seen ironic English patriotism: the over-the -top flag-waving when they play Elgar is a joke in itself, precisely because Brits don’t usually do that shit. Think of it as a sort of Rocky Horror Show call-and-response.
OK, that totally makes sense. When Americans wave the flag, they’re being overly patriotic. But when Englishmen do so, they’re being ironic.
You’d make a very good tourist. Don’t forget te Beefeaters at the Tower of London and a walk across the Abbey Road.
Except that the Last Night of the Proms is, indeed, a bit complicated.
For a start, there are plenty of people who love the BBC Proms, but who have no interest whatsoever in the Last Night. Like myself. Who was at the, in practice more exclusive, “Shakespeare Prom” just last Saturday night, yet who wouldn’t be seen dead at the Last Night. I’m not even sure I’ve watched the Last Night on TV in the last 30 years. (Granted the “Shakespeare Prom” was very much an Anglocentric exercise, albeit in a space named in honour of someone remembered here partly as an American refugee from McCarthyism.)
There is, no doubt, the contingent for whom the Last Night is completely unironic (and they are mainly the reason I find the concert distasteful). On the other hand, there are plenty of attendees who flagrantly use it as an excuse to conspicuously wave national flags other than the Union Jack. Which is taken as a part of the occasion by everyone else. It’s a free-for-all party.
But the real bottom-line is that it’s one night a year at a specific concert hall in Zone 2 in London with a pretty limited audience. I’m not sure that even the much larger crowd across the road in the park - for all that they’ll lap up the Elgar, and why not? - treats it as particularly patriotic as such. Didn’t Terry Wogan used to front that?
Its really not. Yeah they wave flags, thats it. Waving something is a lot different from the flag worship I mentioned… They wave flags as that is what everyone else is doing, if said flags were dropped in a pool of muddy water there wouldn’t be any issue…
It’s true! These people are clearly a merry band of Oxbridge intellectuals out to ironically subvert the concept of patriotism - a concept which they have risen above, unlike Americans.
That’s simply not an argument. “You can’t compare the United States to North Korea because we’re better!” In most respects, yes, you are. But that doesn’t mean that that some unsettling aspects can’t be compared, especially if they are traits shared by both but not commonly seen in other nations. Like, say, flag idolatry, and oaths of loyalty to the state. For instance, is it valid to compare the United States with such luminaries as Lesotho, Qatar, Yemen, Bangladesh, Belarus, Somalia and yes, our old friend North Korea? Why, yes, yes it is.
And before somebody says “But not every state has the death penalty”, this argument has already been disposed of: you can’t just claim the positives for the nation and blame the negatives on the state. After all, when Michael Phelps wins a gold medal, you don’t say “Yeah, but what else do you expect from Baltimore? Not every state has a Michael Phelps”.