# BLM stops ACLU event: do they have a point? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 4, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977 "2017-10-04T18:52:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/81 "2017-10-05T15:50:40Z")
I live near Gettysburg and like 10 years ago, the White supremacist nazi kkk types wanted to rally and a bunch of people didn’t want them too. IIRC, the ACLU represented them or helped them and their right to March was upheld. It was awesome! You had a dozen or so hapless trailer trash losers walking down the street, and hundreds of people booing them. I felt sorry for the Nazis. It was again awesome. I felt sorry for them not because I sympathized with their thinking in any way. I don’t. I felt for sorry for the bunch of misguided losers who feel that life has done them wrong and this is somehow the answer. They were pathetic. That’s how I like my Nazis: Fat, stupid, pathetic. Parade them out once in a while, let everybody get a good look. They were doing everybody a favor, reminding us why this shit is so bad. That was at least 10 years ago. Times have changed, I guess. That was a nice moment. Those hapless idiots marching, and the streets packed with people booing and laughing at them. Not angry, laughing. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/82 "2017-10-05T15:53:25Z")
I guess my point is that the ACLU helping them to March was a huge positive in promoting equality. People of all races and creeds coming out to make fun of Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/83 "2017-10-05T16:22:37Z")
The thing is that despite what George H W Bush might have said, the ACLU is not a liberal organization as far as the Left/Right divide of the US goes. Since the US Left tends to be focused on defending the disadvantaged, and the disadvantaged are more likely than the overclass to have their civil rights violated, the ACLU is most likely to find themselves on the Leftl side of the political divide, but this isn’t always true. They don’t have a stake in who what proper taxation should be, or how much welfare should be spent, and they are often on the opposite sides of many American Liberal constituencies. For example, their support of pornography is attacked by feminists, and as in this case their support of free speech rights for Nazi’s runs contrary to the desires of Black Lives Matter. Similarly I could imagine a Right to Life group protesting the Libertarian pro-choice stance, even though generally both are thought of as part of the American Right. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/84 "2017-10-05T16:27:09Z")
for historical referrence > [@doorhinge](#): > > The ACLU is handing out bullets? > > The terrorist group Antifa are violent people who gather in support of violence. They went to Charlottesville to commit acts of violence and fights broke out between them and the Nazi/Klan. The only black lives matter supporters demand that police officers be burned like bacon. Birds of a feather, as far as I’m concerned. Should the speech of Antifa, the Nazis, only black lives matter, and the Klan be restricted? Are there any other groups you would like to see added to the list? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There is no such organization as “only black lives matter”. They’re organized? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/85 "2017-10-05T16:27:48Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The terrorist group Antifa are violent people who gather in support of violence. They went to Charlottesville to commit acts of violence and fights broke out between them and the Nazi/Klan. The only black lives matter supporters demand that police officers be burned like bacon. Birds of a feather, as far as I’m concerned. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > How _fucking trivial_ would it be for a motivated party to make this comparison, and use it to strip countless people of their right to peaceable protest under your rules? Man I’m just gonna take my point as _proven_. > [@Scylla](#): > > I live near Gettysburg and like 10 years ago, the White supremacist nazi kkk types wanted to rally and a bunch of people didn’t want them too. IIRC, the ACLU represented them or helped them and their right to March was upheld. > > It was awesome! > > You had a dozen or so hapless trailer trash losers walking down the street, and hundreds of people booing them. > > I felt sorry for the Nazis. It was again awesome. I felt sorry for them not because I sympathized with their thinking in any way. I don’t. I felt for sorry for the bunch of misguided losers who feel that life has done them wrong and this is somehow the answer. They were pathetic. > > That’s how I like my Nazis: Fat, stupid, pathetic. Parade them out once in a while, let everybody get a good look. They were doing everybody a favor, reminding us why this shit is so bad. > > That was at least 10 years ago. Times have changed, I guess. > > That was a nice moment. Those hapless idiots marching, and the streets packed with people booing and laughing at them. Not angry, laughing. That’s sort of a nice corollary to free speech. Good ideas do better in a free-speech environment than bad ideas. Charlottesville probably did more to hurt the nazi cause than any amount of left-wing bitching about them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/86 "2017-10-05T16:38:29Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > This is one of the examples of why I am not such a big fan of protests anymore… You used to be? What was the last one, pray tell? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/87 "2017-10-05T17:28:21Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > for historical referrence > > They’re organized? You’re the one who invented this fictional group. You don’t know this about your own creation? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/88 "2017-10-05T18:57:20Z")
**doorhinge** didn’t invent it. It’s the organization that people join whenever someone says “all lives matter”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/89 "2017-10-05T19:07:21Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > So, college students did something dumb and assholic, film at 11? > > Shock and surprise. When I was a student in the 50s, we did listen to the other side. I went to a talk by William Buckley. I disagreed with most of what he said (he was pro-McCarthy, for example, something I was fervently opposed to) but we listened respectfully to him and it didn’t do us a bit of harm. He even made a point that I accepted. He pointed out that no Communist government had ever yielded power once they had it. Nowadays, this probably couldn’t happen at the same school (U. Penn), although I am not certain. And that is a real loss. Trigger warnings: If you can’t stand the heat, get the hell out of the kitchen snowflake. What would happen to an atheist at Bob Jones U? ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/90 "2017-10-05T19:20:00Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > Ah, OK. I missed the reference and thus misidentified the type of specious argument you were deploying. It’s not that you were ignoring **BigT** ’s argument outright but instead indulging in a guilt by association fallacy. Thanks for clearing up my mistake. Will you now address your own? > > To be clear, I am disputing the premise that because a line of reasoning was used or misused in one situation with tragic results it shouldn’t be used in any situation. (At least I hope that’s more clear.) Not at all. I could equally well have instanced the German Nazi party, or the Soviets, or even Mussolini’s Fascist party as people who like the RC Church forbade free speech to those they disapproved of. Or Jean Calvin’s Geneva. Or Louis XIV’s Dragonnades. When you deny free speech to any — because morals — free speech as a concept is destroyed. That does not mean necessarily a horrible society, it may even be a peaceful happy one with dissidents silenced; but it won’t be a correct society. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/91 "2017-10-05T20:17:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **doorhinge** didn’t invent it. It’s the organization that people join whenever someone says “all lives matter”. It’s been years now. How can you not understand by now why people protesting against threats to their very lives and the lives of their family are not happy when those not under threat respond by changing the subject? (Or not under as much threat. Police brutality does affect nonblacks as well.) . > [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Not at all. > > I could equally well have instanced the German Nazi party, or the Soviets, or even Mussolini’s Fascist party as people who like the RC Church forbade free speech to those they disapproved of. Or Jean Calvin’s Geneva. Or Louis XIV’s Dragonnades. > > When you deny free speech to any — because morals — free speech as a concept is destroyed. You could have cited those instances, sure, but that wouldn’t prove your point either since again, just because something happened in other circumstances doesn’t prove that it will happen in ours. And yes, I do think killing is immoral and people shouldn’t be promoting it. If were right with your absolutist vision of free speech then there would be no free speech in America because we already limit speech in certain areas. You can’t threaten the President and hide behind free speech. I see no reason why we shouldn’t extend that protection to the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/92 "2017-10-05T20:17:05Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The ACLU is handing out bullets? > > The terrorist group Antifa are violent people who gather in support of violence. They went to Charlottesville to commit acts of violence and fights broke out between them and the Nazi/Klan. The only black lives matter supporters demand that police officers be burned like bacon. Birds of a feather, as far as I’m concerned. Should the speech of Antifa, the Nazis, only black lives matter, and the Klan be restricted? Are there any other groups you would like to see added to the list? BLM are equivalent to the Antifa/Nazi/Klan now? The latters’ purpose is violence; BLM has no such mandate. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/93 "2017-10-05T20:39:10Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > No, _you_ don’t get it. Do you _really_ think that the people hurt by weaking free speech protections are, first and foremost, white supremacists? In _this_ administration? Nazis are not an operational threat. Everyone saw their colors at Charlottesville - few in number, and _weak_. Incapable of spreading their ideas through debate, and reduced to violence - and not even _effective_ violence. This movement is an operational threat to our democracy in the same way that the Taliban is. The far greater risk is that we respond to this tiny threat by destroying liberties that are essential to _all_ of us, and especially those under threat. The alt-right/Klan/Nazis are not marginal in your country’s politics and those psychopaths rally to get more pumped and violent. A good reason to restrict their rallies right there. Talk of the “Free speech” to incite violence will get no sympathy with me. > [@](#): > > [Sniper Ambush Kills 5 Officers, Injures 7 in Dallas Following Peaceful Protest – NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth](http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Protests-in-Dallas-Over-Alton-Sterling-Death-385784431.html) > > Leave aside for the moment whether this is really a _fair_ comparison. I don’t think it is; BLM is primarily a peaceful movement, while neo-nazis aren’t. But here we are - BLM held a mostly peaceful rally, then someone from within the movement killed a bunch of people. Just like how, at Charlottesville, neo-nazis held a mostly peaceful rally, then someone from within the movement ran someone over on purpose. How _fucking trivial_ would it be for a motivated party to make this comparison, and use it to strip countless people of their right to peaceable protest under your rules? And how many motivated parties are there in Washington right now who really don’t like BLM? Does BLM preach for murder? If yes, then HELL YEAH, throw them in with the alt-right! I don’t give two shits for those who preach murder Do you allow violent Imams in your country? I bet you don’t. For the good goddamned reason that their preaching might brainwash someone into a terrorist attack. Why are Nazis safe then?!? Why the goose and not the gander here? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/94 "2017-10-05T21:02:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re the one who invented this fictional group. You don’t know this about your own creation? The only black lives matter supporters vehemently object to the ACLU’s free speech, according to the linked article at the top of this thread. The only black lives matter supporters vehemently object that blue (police) lives matter. The only black lives matter supporters vehemently object that gay lives matter. It certainly seems as if the only black lives matter supporters only support black lives. Damn the ACLU try trying to speak while the only black lives matter supporters are shouting them down. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/95 "2017-10-05T21:11:35Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > It’s been years now. How can you not understand by now why people protesting against threats to their very lives and the lives of their family are not happy when those not under threat respond by changing the subject? (post shortened) How can you not understand that many people object to being threatened by the actions of some of these protesting groups. Many people are simply not intimidated, or amused, by the antics of the only black lives matter supporters, the terrorist Antifa thugs, the Klan, or the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/96 "2017-10-05T22:25:07Z")
I don’t see the fear of BLM as reasonable but I do accept that it exists. And fear of those other groups as well. Now that I’ve answered your question will you answer mine? Do you understand why BLM supporters are frustrated with the response of “all lives matter”? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/97 "2017-10-05T22:41:28Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > the only black lives matter supporters As already pointed out, there isn’t any such movement as “only black lives matter”. The point of the BLM movement is that black lives matter precisely **because** all lives matter. That’s why it’s unjust for our society to accept treatment of black lives as though they **don’t** matter, or don’t matter as much as nonblack lives. It remains a mystery to me why any white people get butthurt about that entirely reasonable and egalitarian position. I’ve ended up having to mentally file “Black Lives Matter” along with “Living Things Evolve By Natural Selection” and “Human Fossil Fuel Use Changes Atmospheric Composition” in the category _Completely Unremarkable Veracious Assertions That Some People Get Irrationally Upset About_. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/98 "2017-10-05T23:09:26Z")
I wish I knew and understood the arguments of those who are not afraid of the free speech slippery slope to properly debate it here directly. I think it’d be really interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/99 "2017-10-05T23:20:37Z")
I stopped in here to see why the Bureau of Land Management would want to stop an ACLU event. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977/100 "2017-10-05T23:25:39Z")
> [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > I stopped in here to see why the Bureau of Land Management would want to stop an ACLU event. > > Never mind. Oh, the ACLU has butted heads with that BLM too on occasion, as in [this 2005 lawsuit](https://www.aclu.org/news/wyoming-residents-including-descendants-mormon-pioneers-sue-block-lds-church-control-national): > [@](#): > > CHEYENNE, WY – Saying that visitors to a national historic site are being made to feel like outsiders on public lands, the American Civil Liberties Union today asked a federal court here to block the Bureau of Land Management from leasing the site, known as Martin’s Cove, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS). > > “The story of Martin’s Cove is part of a much larger history of American westward migration that is not limited to the religious significance that the site has for the Church,” said ACLU attorney Mark Lopez, who is lead counsel in the case. > > “By allowing the LDS Church to control these historic public lands, the government has abdicated its responsibility to preserve those lands as part of the national trust,” he added. “Congress has singled out the LDS Church for special treatment by allowing the Church to act as gatekeeper and steward of the property.” […] > > The ACLU filed the case on behalf of four Wyoming residents and an environmental advocacy group who say that the Church has converted the federal property into a religious site for tens of thousands of LDS members who come to Martin’s Cove annually. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blm-stops-aclu-event-do-they-have-a-point/797977.md?page=6)