# Blonde, come on down, explain yourself if you can! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 13, 2004, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056 "2004-03-13T07:40:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/21 "2004-03-14T05:38:40Z")
This sounds awful, until you think for a moment what a c-section involves. My wife had one, and she was knocked out for it. First off, getting anasthesia is always somewhat dangerous. I don’t know any statistics on how dangerous, but my wife is also an MD and she, shall we say, respects the danger. Also, when they called me in to see my new baby (this was 14 years ago) she was still under, and as I passed the anesthetist he went “Ooops!” and I saw some graph he was looking at go flat for a moment before he responded to whatever was going on. Took me aback, let me tell you, but I let him be and let him do his job, because me getting all concerned wouldn’t have done anything but make him nervous, which would not have been a good thing. She was useless for the first day after the baby was born. It’s a serious operation, and while it almost always goes well because it’s so common, that doesn’t mean there’s no danger in it. So yes, a person should have a choice about this as about any medical procedure. This stuff is not to be taken lightly, ever. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/22 "2004-03-14T05:50:06Z")
While we’re poking around on this issue, what if a pregnant woman is diagnosed with cancer or some other illness and the best treatment poses some danger to the baby? Should she be forced to choose the treatment that does least harm to the baby, even if it will do more damage to her body (or leave her at greatest risk for cancer growth)? A lot of women would make that choice voluntarily, of course, but what if Mom didn’t want that choice? Is she a criminal? ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/23 "2004-03-14T05:55:37Z")
I should add, that although I was not a working pregnant woman, I did have a difficult pregnancy. I had the good fortune to have an open minded doctor for my pregnancy. I was told that I was “spontaneously aborting” the baby I was carrying. Translation: trying to miscarry. This doctor, unlike a lot of doctors sat me down and had a frank talk with me. This is a paraphrasing of what they told me. “You should try to stay calm, eat well, drink lots of water, and limit your activites. Many doctors will tell you that you should go on complete bed rest, which I am going to recommend for you. You should only really be walking around to go to the bathroom, otherwise stay in bed. However, **if you are going to lose this child, you will, no matter what you do.** There are things that the woman can do that **SEEM** to help, but they do not guarentee that the baby won’t be lost.” (They said something about studies not being able to PROVE beyond doubt that these things work.) “I am also going to prescribe some Benadryll for you to take, several times a day, this should help slow down, and may stop the labor.” (He explained that I was in premature labor, but it was so early, that it would end up as a miscarriage because the baby was too young to survive outside the womb.) He also explained that a lot of doctors would have put me in the hospital and “enforced” bed rest, but he didn’t see the purpose of that because even bed rest was not a proven method to stop a miscarriage. Also, he didn’t want to risk me catching something and making matters worse. This is to illustrate why I don’t think a doctor’s word should be taken as law. ---
**Author:** ![Chotii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@Chotii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chotii)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/24 "2004-03-14T06:00:58Z")
> [@pantom](#): > > It’s a serious operation, and while it almost always goes well because it’s so common, that doesn’t mean there’s no danger in it. So yes, a person should have a choice about this as about any medical procedure. This stuff is not to be taken lightly, ever. Except that people DO take it lightly. Don’t want to face the pain of childbirth? Schedule a cesarean. Don’t want to upset your career? Schedule a cesearan. The SOB I had for a doctor with my first pregnancy offered me an elective cesarean at 38 weeks “so sex would be better for my husband”. I said no. A week later he “accidentally” ruptured my membranes while stripping them (without asking my consent, nor informing me) and wound up cutting me 24 hours later, when he just happened to be the doc on call. I think he’d planned to cut me from the beginning. I found out later (from a nurse) he has the highest % of c/s patients in that hospital. Some people take it lightly. But when _doctors_ do this, they forget one important thing: they don’t have to live with the results afterward. They don’t have to deal with the potential emotional harm to the woman, they may not be the physician who cares for that woman next time, they just cut and forget. If it’s done for a valid medical reason, then all’s well and good. But what if it isn’t? Not all harm can be seen on the surface. And it’s not true that “all that matters is a healthy baby”. A healthy mother matters too. And that goes for emotional health. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/25 "2004-03-14T06:01:02Z")
I’ll add, I was lucky, I did not miscarry the baby. However, that Ob. Gyn.'s words served to alert me to the fact that there is widespread “dissension” on how to treat certain complications of pregnancy, that some doctors are “heavier handed” than others, and what one doctor puts forth as a definite solution, might not be, because of all the different factors that come together in a pregnancy. That was the point of my previous post, that even the more open minded doctors will tell you, there are just too many unknowns for any “treatment procedure” to be a definite solution. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/26 "2004-03-14T06:13:36Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > So, **Ale** _what your saying, in essence, is that a doctor’s word bears the “force of law”? Doctor’s aren’t human, and fallible_, and capable of missing vital information? This is what you are saying? What planet do you live on? Go to the other thread, read the accounts of women who have given birth, who have had C-sections, and see what they say. You tell me; the case you elaborated, to which I replyed was: _the doctor tells her “Stay in bed or your baby WILL die!”._ You made a case, don´t spin it on me. > [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > Educate yourself, be willing to give up your ignorance, or join **Blonde** in leaving this country since you obviously also have no use for the tenents set forth in the Constitution. (And if you have no use for the Constitution, than you have no reason to be here, and I don’t want you here to rape the Constitution…so go!) Oh, how kind, I´ll save you the anguish and tell you that I don´t live in the USA, so don´t get your knickers in a bunch for that. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/27 "2004-03-14T06:19:05Z")
Zabali\_Clawbane- First, saying that if someone disagrees with you they should leave the country is stupid as shit and you are advised to cease and desist lest you want to appear stupid as shit. Second, your example about the working mother is also stupid as shit. I am no doctor but I believe that not eating would be more detrimental to the baby’s health than working and eating. Lastly, As far as I can tell no one is forcing these women to have intercourse. In my opinion you give up some rights by having sex becuase in essence you are inviting a baby into your body. In my opinion you have given up the right to refuse a proceedure that will save the life of your baby becuase you don’t desire a scar. If you can’t accept that my opinion is different than yours than you can suck not just one but both of my nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/28 "2004-03-14T06:36:51Z")
**treis** You obviously have not read the thread in question, only the title. The woman being pitted in that thread feared, in her ignorance being cut “from breast bone to pubic bone”. Secondly, you have a right to your opinion, as do **Blonde** and **Ale**. However, I too, have a right to an opinion, and a right to expect that my rights as set forth by the Constitution won’t be trampled by someone else taking actions based on their opinions. THIS is why I said they should just leave the country. Did I use small enough words for you, or should I try again? Ah, another thing, my example about the working mother is not “stupid as shit” because according to **Ale** ’s logic ANY action that leads to the death of an unborn baby by the woman carrying the baby, should be criminally prosecutable. THAT to me, is going to far, and I’m not the only one who thinks this way. Women have been told in the past that they should go on bedrest, and not work, because they are “miscarrying”. I’ve had a friend whose family and physician (not an Obstetrician) made her feel guilty over a miscarriage because she had to work, they blamed her for losing the baby, even though as my Ob. Gyn. told me, bedrest is not an absolute way to prevent miscarriage. Why don’t you just run along and play elsewhere now, you ignoramus? I’ll pass on “sucking both your nuts” I have no idea how long you’ve let them rot with whatever STD you must have contracted to bring your IQ so low. Of course, I’m assuming you weren’t born that ignorant, maybe you also had it “fostered” by your upbringing too. Either way, born stupid, raised stupid by stupid people, or got stupid somehow else, makes no difference to me. Keep your opinion, as far as I’m concerned it’s stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/29 "2004-03-14T06:46:54Z")
**treis** I’ll add, your opinion is only that, it does not have any legal clout at all. In fact, it goes against the Constitution. How do I know this? I’m certain that there has been at least one pregnant Jehovah’s Witness who was in an accident, and who turned down a blood transfusion, as is their right **under the tenents of the Constitution**. Ergo, it is \*\*NOT \*\* legal to make a woman have a medical procedure done, even if the life of their baby is at stake! Get it? Also, go by this logic. “If everyone else can refuse to have a medical procedure done, whether it be on themselves, or refusing to donate a needed organ etc. to someone else, than this also is true for pregnant women.” ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/30 "2004-03-14T07:04:32Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > Also, go by this logic. “If everyone else can refuse to have a medical procedure done, whether it be on themselves, or refusing to donate a needed organ etc. to someone else, than this also is true for pregnant women.” I believe you’re incorrect in this case too. The law designates special classes of citizens who get different treatment than others. Children, for instance. The mentally handicapped, also. Children are designated by an arbitrary (depending on the right) age limit. This is quite arguably more trivial than whether a potential human life exists inside you, so I don’t believe it would be terribly unbelievable for the government to create another grouping of citizens which certain laws apply to. Note: I’m not saying it would be RIGHT for them to do that, I’m saying it’s incorrect to say that just because something applies to one, it must apply to all. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/31 "2004-03-14T07:06:50Z")
[speaking into tape recorder] Ah subject in question did not understand my first post. I am attempting to communicate in a language that it may understand [/speaking into a tape recorder] Me no care how big scar is. Size of scar no matter. Important ting is dat baby live. Mommy give up rights when she hab sex. Constitution sez nuttin bout mommy’s right to not have a scar. You mebbe certain bout lotsa tings but it don’t make me believe you just cuz you repeat them over and over. Bout da workin mommy. Her baby dead no matter wut if she don’t eat. Her workin so she can eat ain’t criminal. Me guess if you ask smart docotor guy he tell her to work and eat and not starve. Me gonna listen to smart doctor not to some dope on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/32 "2004-03-14T07:08:40Z")
**Zabali\_Clawbane** , you keep waving the Constitution around rather vigorously. I wonder if you’d be so good as to point out the specific article or amendment which supports your claims? For your convenience, you can find the full text [here](http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html). ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/33 "2004-03-14T07:18:36Z")
**Ale** Do you not see that the words “Stay in bed or your baby WILL die” are still ONLY an opinion? (They constitute a “diagnosis”, are “advice” and as most people realize, are subjective, and vary sometimes widely from doctor to doctor.) Granted the person with the opinion has medical training, but as my own experience shows, bedrest is not a definite solution to the problem of “spontaneous abortion”. Plenty of women have stayed “on their feet” against medical advice and not lost babies, others have gone to bed, and lost the baby anyway. Given these things, then it’s really up to the woman, to decide what happens to their body. I’m sure that at least one woman somewhere in the world today, has given birth to a healthy baby, after staying on their feet and working despite the fact that they were in danger of a miscarriage, and against their physician’s ADVICE. Also, there’s likely been at least one despairing woman, who despite the fact that they stayed in bed, miscarried. On preview **Garfield226** this is exactly my point. It should be applied equally in this case, because of the ramifications if it isn’t. If that “door” is opened at all, and allowed to “stay open” then it opens up the way for legislation to be made, starting out “small” first, and getting bigger and bigger, until people could not refuse to donate organs at all etc. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/34 "2004-03-14T07:20:47Z")
**Q.E.D.** Go look up any case that has come up in the court systems in which a Jehovah’s Witnesses right to refuse a blood transfusion was upheld. Go look up other cases in which people’s rights to refuse medical treatments have been upheld using the Constitution as a basis. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/35 "2004-03-14T07:23:13Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > On preview **Garfield226** this is exactly my point. It should be applied equally in this case, because of the ramifications if it isn’t. If that “door” is opened at all, and allowed to “stay open” then it opens up the way for legislation to be made, starting out “small” first, and getting bigger and bigger, until people could not refuse to donate organs at all etc. That’s a slippery slope argument. There is no reason to believe that the leap will be made from a mandatory C-section to save the life of a baby and a mandatory organ donation. If the door of gay marriage is opened at all, and allowed to stay open, then it opens up the way for legislation to be made, starting out “small” first, and getting bigger and bigger until people could have multiple wives and husbands, or even children or animals as spouses! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/36 "2004-03-14T07:29:10Z")
Zabali\_Clawbane- You do understand that no medical treatment is 100% effective right? If in the doctors estimation there is a 70 percent chance of successful birth with bedrest but only a 30 percent without it he will advise bedrest. Regardless of whether you choose to follow his advice or whether the pregnancy is successful bedrest was the best option. You may have gotten lucky and the other woman in you example were unlucky it doesn’t change the fact that the advise is sound. If you keep asserting that you have a constitutional right to refuse medical treatment that is necessary to save the life of your unborn baby without backing it up. Vague references to some mysterious court ruling don’t cut it. In my estimation I have a very limited knowledge of these cases but what I remember is that the government cannot force medical treatment on someone. As far as I remember they don’t ever mention an unborn child. If you have evidence to the contrary I suggest you reveal it. Repeating it again over and over will not make me believe you. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/37 "2004-03-14T07:31:51Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > **Q.E.D.** Go look up any case that has come up in the court systems in which a Jehovah’s Witnesses right to refuse a blood transfusion was upheld. Go look up other cases in which people’s rights to refuse medical treatments have been upheld using the Constitution as a basis. No, you are the one making the assertions. YOU find me the relevant Constitutional amendment, and we’ll talk. I’ll admit my own knowledge of the Constitution is fairly limited, but a quick reading reveals nothing specifically protecting a woman’s right to refuse surgery despite risks to her unborn child’s life. For the record, I do not disagree with your position. However, seeing as how abortion is still an open and hotly contested issue, I fail to see how the Constitution applies here. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/38 "2004-03-14T07:33:01Z")
**Q.E.D.** Here’s a thought, if it’s not a right protected by the Constitution, why are “DNR” forms in existence, legal, and protected in the courts? Here’s a few [links](http://www.angelfire.com/biz3/gatheringplace/rights.html) that also back up what I am saying. The previous link is from [this site.](http://www.angelfire.com/biz3/gatheringplace/menu.html) **Garfield226** Glad to see that you’ve either taken a good anti-histamine, or aren’t allergic to hay. :rolleyes: Yourself. Don’t you dare insinuate that I’m against Gay marriage. I think it should be legal, if it’s legal for heterosexual couples. You’re just throwing up a smoke screen for want of any better debating material. I’m not even the one that first hinted at such a thought in the first thread. Go on, read it all and you’ll see. I posted that I agreed with them, and found the implications disturbing or some such. It’s on the first page I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/39 "2004-03-14T07:33:44Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Mommy give up rights when she hab sex. Oh, just so we’re clear on that. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056/40 "2004-03-14T07:36:15Z")
Bleh [Correct link to the “parent site” in my previous post.](http://www.unhinderedliving.com/index.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blonde-come-on-down-explain-yourself-if-you-can/234056.md?page=3)