# Blood donation **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 28, 2007, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448 "2007-12-28T06:07:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![copperwindow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@copperwindow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/copperwindow)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/1 "2007-12-28T06:07:18Z")
How is it that the American Red Cross can refuse blood donations from men who have had **protected** sexual contact with other men and not get sued for discrimination? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/2 "2007-12-28T07:26:19Z")
First we should keep in mind that although the Red Cross is not a government organization, it must operate under the guidelines put forth by the FDA. These guidelines include the ban on MSMs that you are describing. It would be the FDA that would be sued - not the Red Cross. Second the policy is not a law, it is a “guideline”. The FDA is an administrative agency and its rules and guidelines, though enforceable as law, umm… aren’t actual laws. This makes the legal basis for a suit a bit murky. IANAL, so maybe a doper better versed can flesh that part out a bit better. Of course, the FDA can be sued over this. My guess as to why they haven’t is that trying to build a case against the FDA would be a bit daunting. Can giving blood even be considered a right? Has this policy caused harm to be inflicted on any individual or group? Are MSM’s even a group protected by U.S. anti-discrimination laws? These are some sticky legal questions that anyone preparing a legal suit against a federal regulatory agency must be able to answer convincingly in a court of law. Please understand that I am neither defending nor attacking the current guidelines. ---
**Author:** ![copperwindow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@copperwindow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/copperwindow)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/3 "2007-12-28T08:43:29Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] First we should keep in mind that although the Red Cross is not a government organization, it must operate under the guidelines put forth by the FDA. These guidelines include the ban on MSMs that you are describing. It would be the FDA that would be sued - not the Red Cross. Second the policy is not a law, it is a “guideline”. The FDA is an administrative agency and its rules and guidelines, though enforceable as law, umm.. aren’t actual laws. This makes the legal basis for a suit a bit murky. IANAL, so maybe a doper better versed can flesh that part out a bit better. Of course, the FDA can be sued over this. My guess as to why they haven’t is that trying to build a case against the FDA would be a bit daunting. Can giving blood even be considered a right? Has this policy caused harm to be inflicted on any individual or group? Are MSM’s even a group protected by U.S. anti-discrimination laws? These are some sticky legal questions that anyone preparing a legal suit against a federal regulatory agency must be able to answer convincingly in a court of law. Please understand that I am neither defending nor attacking the current guidelines. [/QUOTE] So they can also refuse blood from blacks, Hispanics, women, and non-land owners if they wanted to too? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/4 "2007-12-28T09:07:19Z")
[QUOTE=copperwindow] So they can also refuse blood from blacks, Hispanics, women, and non-land owners if they wanted to too? [/QUOTE] Sure, why not? I mean aside from the insane illogic of it. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/5 "2007-12-28T09:10:52Z")
[QUOTE=copperwindow] So they can also refuse blood from blacks, Hispanics, women, and non-land owners if they wanted to too? [/QUOTE] Yes, if there was a demonstrable health risk. Shoot, it’s legal for the government to strip away your rights completely and [quarantine](http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:qPX3E5iJxcYJ:www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RL31333.pdf+federal+law+quarantine&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a) you if there is a demonstrable contagion risk. Now, the claim that MSMs still constitute a HIV health risk to the blood supply is on pretty shaky ground if you ask me, but it’s worth noting that there is still no federal law prohibiting discrimination against gays in the workplace, much less at blood drives. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/6 "2007-12-28T09:48:17Z")
Doing a bit more research on the topic, it seems that the MSM infection risk might not be on as shaky ground as I first thought. It’s still a significant problem. From the [CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/resources/factsheets/msm.htm) > [@](#): > > In the United States, HIV infection and AIDS have had a tremendous effect on men who have sex with men (MSM). MSM accounted for 71% of all HIV infections among male adults and adolescents in 2005 (based on data from 33 states with long-term, confidential name-based HIV reporting), even though only about 5% to 7% of male adults and adolescents in the United States identify themselves as MSM That’s one Hell of a percentage. All donations are tested for HIV, but I don’t suppose I can blame the FDA for wanting a second level of protection in preventing HIV infection. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/7 "2007-12-28T13:50:10Z")
[QUOTE=copperwindow] So they can also refuse blood from blacks, Hispanics, women, and non-land owners if they wanted to too? [/QUOTE] If there is some logical reason for excluding them they can but they don’t, do they? They can refuse you even if you have only travelled in certain countries. Whenever there is an accusation that the blood supply is tainted a major shitstorm occurs. I’m not one to defend the Red Cross but I certainly can understand why they would want to make every effort to prevent contaminated blood from being transfused. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/8 "2007-12-28T15:01:28Z")
If it came down to it, they would just accept the blood and then trash it- they’re not going to risk (in their mind) infecting a recepient just to appease some group. Then the question would be, could they make them use the blood they made them accept in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/9 "2007-12-28T17:43:30Z")
> [@](#): > > They can refuse you even if you have only travelled in certain countries. Or sneeze for any reason in their hearing. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/10 "2007-12-28T19:01:32Z")
[QUOTE=copperwindow] How is it that the American Red Cross can refuse blood donations from men who have had **protected** sexual contact with other men and not get sued for discrimination? [/QUOTE] I want them to be exceedingly discriminating when they collect blood products anyone plans to give to me. I don’t care with whom you share fluids or where you travel, but I certainly don’t want to be taken there with you just so your feelings are not hurt. ---
**Author:** ![copperwindow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@copperwindow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/copperwindow)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/11 "2007-12-28T19:20:49Z")
Do MSM’s who only use protection have higher rates on carrying HIV, do we know? ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/12 "2007-12-28T19:35:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Do MSM’s who only use protection have higher rates on carrying HIV, do we know? I’m not understanding your question. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/13 "2007-12-28T21:41:48Z")
I think **copperwindow’s** question in post #11 would be better phrased as “Do MSM’s who always use protection have higher rates of carrying HIV than males who are not MSM’s? Do we know?” I don’t know, but my educated WAG would be that they have a much lower rate of infection than MSMs who don’t use protection (no stretch of logic there) but a higher rate than non MSMs. ---
**Author:** ![copperwindow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@copperwindow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/copperwindow)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/14 "2007-12-29T05:41:08Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] I think **copperwindow’s** question in post #11 would be better phrased as "Do MSM’s who always use protection have higher rates of carrying HIV than males who are not MSM’s? Do we know? [/QUOTE] Yes, that is what I meant. I went to High School with a girl named Samantha who, rumor had it, took on the entire hockey team one night. Why doesn’t the ARC discriminate against her? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/15 "2007-12-29T08:22:38Z")
Because basic medical background questions aren’t supposed to be _that_ personal. How would that work? 1.) Are you currently suffering from any respiratory ailments? 2.) Are your muscles tight for reasons other than sporting activities? 3.) Have you ever been boned by the New York Islanders? 4.) How come they can’t score? 5.) And seriously, that goalie is so fucking bad, wait where’s the needle? **copperwindow** , if you want a debate, take it to GD or the pit. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/16 "2007-12-29T08:37:11Z")
Seriously, start a GD or Pit thread. It’s an interesting topic. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/17 "2007-12-29T08:44:42Z")
[http://www.amfar.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/record.html?record=118](http://www.amfar.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/record.html?record=118) > [@](#): > > an analysis of several studies conducted by the National Institutes of Health found an 85 percent decrease in the risk of HIV transmission among consistent condom-users. ---
**Author:** ![bbs2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@bbs2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbs2k)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/18 "2007-12-29T12:16:09Z")
If someone accepts the offer to start a GD thread about the subject I’ll see you over there, it’s an interesting debate and something feel strongly about. I just wanted to add an anecdotal story about how much times have changed in regards to transfusion medicine and FDA restrictions. One of which states that you are not allowed to donate blood if you have spent 6 or more months in prison. Rhogam is a blood derivative administered to Rh negative women who are pregnant, as well as post-delivery. It is basically an anti-D antibody which will clear any neonatal Rh positive red blood cells that can pass from the fetus into the mother’s bloodstream. This is done to prevent Hemolytic Disease of the Newborn in subsequent pregnancies. Remember what I talked about regarding prison time? Well, how they originally even made Rhogam was by stimulating the immune systems of Rh negative inmates by purposefully exposing them to Rh positive blood. the inmates would then in the coming weeks or months begin producing anti-D because they see the D antigen as foreign. They would then donate their blood and the plasma was separated, divided into doses, and administered to these Rh negative mothers-to-be. Times have changed, bou really didn’t want to know any of that did you? [Cite](http://www.greenjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/77/2/301?ck=nck) (sorry, only an abstract) [Sing Sing Correctional Facility](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sing_Sing) ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/19 "2007-12-29T14:37:03Z")
[QUOTE=bbs2k] I just wanted to add an anecdotal story about how much times have changed in regards to transfusion medicine and FDA restrictions. One of which states that you are not allowed to donate blood if you have spent 6 or more months in prison. Rhogam is a blood derivative administered to Rh negative women who are pregnant, as well as post-delivery. It is basically an anti-D antibody which will clear any neonatal Rh positive red blood cells that can pass from the fetus into the mother’s bloodstream. This is done to prevent Hemolytic Disease of the Newborn in subsequent pregnancies. Remember what I talked about regarding prison time? Well, how they originally even made Rhogam was by stimulating the immune systems of Rh negative inmates by purposefully exposing them to Rh positive blood. the inmates would then in the coming weeks or months begin producing anti-D because they see the D antigen as foreign. They would then donate their blood and the plasma was separated, divided into doses, and administered to these Rh negative mothers-to-be. Times have changed, bou really didn’t want to know any of that did you? [Cite](http://www.greenjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/77/2/301?ck=nck) (sorry, only an abstract) [Sing Sing Correctional Facility](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sing_Sing) [/QUOTE] How do they make it now? Law-abiding volunteers? I’m an Rh-negative male who gives blood, seemingly perfect for the job; I’ve gotten fliers and pamphlets asking me to give packed red cells and platelets, but never anything about deliberately getting exposed to Rh so I can be a Rhogam cow. ---
**Author:** ![bbs2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@bbs2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbs2k)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448/20 "2007-12-29T14:44:34Z")
[QUOTE=coffeecat] How do they make it now? Law-abiding volunteers? I’m an Rh-negative male who gives blood, seemingly perfect for the job; I’ve gotten fliers and pamphlets asking me to give packed red cells and platelets, but never anything about deliberately getting exposed to Rh so I can be a Rhogam cow. [/QUOTE] No, sorry for not clarifying, but currently I believe it’s produced as a monoclonal antibody artificially. For mass-production. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-donation/431448.md?page=2)