# Blood Libel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020 "2009-12-21T02:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/21 "2009-12-21T08:19:27Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > (or if you’re silly enough to think that doctors are going to let you die for that nice healthy liver you’ve got in you) Given the kind of mutual hatred and disdain Israelis and Palestinians often seem to have for each other, I don’t see such a fear as “silly”. Its not like they haven’t killed each other even when there was nothing at all to gain. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/22 "2009-12-21T08:20:28Z")
I don’t get it. This story broke 9 years ago; the government commission investigating it submitted its conclusions back in 2004. Why is it coming up now? Frankly, I’m starting to get annoyed here. We had a doctor taking minor organs from cadavers without permission, something that could happen - and probably has happened - in any country. And yet, because it’s Israel, you all have to see it within the context of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Why? Is that the only filter you’re willing to use when looking at my country? The hell with you. We’re allowed to have criminals and scandals just like everyone else. Not everything we do has to fit into your little _narrative_. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/23 "2009-12-21T08:29:49Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I can’t imagine that many Palestinians would be happy that their organs were used to save or improve the life of the people they view as their enemy and occupier. Well, when I signed the organ donor card, I asked if I could specify that _none of these organs will be used in a **Republican** _, but the clerk told me that this was not an option – once I was dead, I had no say in who got my organs. She did say that if I didn’t approve of the organ recipients, I should feel free to come back and haunt them. But I think she was joking then. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/24 "2009-12-21T08:36:50Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > IFrankly, I’m starting to get annoyed here. We had a doctor taking minor organs from cadavers without permission, something that could happen - and probably has happened - in any country. And yet, because it’s Israel, you all have to see it within the context of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Why? Is that the only filter you’re willing to use when looking at my country? Well, in this case, the story is a new twist on a recent story. With the recent hoopla regarding the (apparently pretty much invented) Swedish article, an interviewer decided to release information, (that seems to have been recorded, but not actually released several years ago), to provide additional context. I agree that the new information actually argues against the Swedish article, and it appears that no targeting was done of any group (and even the “harvesting of organs” appears to be a gross exaggeration). On the other hand, since no information has been provided regarding the recipients of the corneas and other tissue, Palestinians are still going to be upset that their bodies were taken without consent by Israelis–especially since such tissues are more likely to have been donated to Israelis. As to “criminals and scandals,” the fact that there appears to have been no actual punishment–a director no longer directing but still working is hardly strong evidence of a disciplinary action much less actual punishment–is going to further rile up Palestinian reactions. I have no strong feelings on the issue, but you have to recognize that this is a bit bigger deal than an occasional kickback to a politician or a bit of smuggling. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/25 "2009-12-21T09:19:05Z")
Look, if some white American doctor had been taking corneas from dead bodies, and it turned out that one out of ten of them was black, do you think the Rev. Al Sharpton would have summoned a press conference to decry the assault on African-American dignity? I don’t think even he would go that far. That means, in effect, that people here are being _less reasonable than Al Sharpton_. And they’re expecting the Palestinians do be the same way. I followed this story for years, and this is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone address it in terms of Israeli-Palestinian relations. The only reason I can think of anyone doing that is that they feel the need to stir up shit that doesn’t need to be stirred up. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/26 "2009-12-21T09:21:02Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I can’t imagine that many Palestinians would be happy that their organs were used to save or improve the life of the people they view as their enemy and occupier. I sympathize with the idea of non-consensual organ donation to some extent, but the context within which this was done seems unbelievably disrespectful. A poll would have to be conducted to find out the personal opinions of a group of people. I think that there will be the whole gamut of opinion on this matter. Some people here in the US wouldn’t consider giving strangers an organ after their own death, others would consider it an honor or obligation. I don’t know what the religious implications are for Muslims, but not everyone is going to follow them anyway. I can’t imagine that anyone would disagree with my many opinions. Yet when I ask people, they _usually_ disagree with me. Perhaps I should reduce my contact with the contentious profession. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/27 "2009-12-21T09:24:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I followed this story for years, and this is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone address it in terms of Israeli-Palestinian relations. The only reason I can think of anyone doing that is that they feel the need to stir up shit that doesn’t need to be stirred up. Then you haven’t followed the story in the US. The times that it has come up here the context of the conflict is always the angle of the news stories. That is how news works in this country. The only context that I’ve ever seen it in has been message board discussions where the rumor is raised and vehemently denied. Now it is apparently confirmed. This is unethical medicine by any standard used in the US. I cannot imagine the doctors involved in Israel will not be up for discipline. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/28 "2009-12-21T09:27:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > something that could happen - and probably has happened - in any country. It happened in the UK: [Alder Hey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alder_Hey_organs_scandal) children’s hospital in Liverpool did just such a thing with the bodies of dead children, without the knowledge or permission of their families. I disagree that this is a “good thing”. The families of the children were devastated - secular or not. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/29 "2009-12-21T09:33:38Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Then you haven’t followed the story in the US. The times that it has come up here the context of the conflict is always the angle of the news stories. That is how news works in this country. The only context that I’ve ever seen it in has been message board discussions where the rumor is raised and vehemently denied. Now it is apparently confirmed. But that’s my problem: the only context people have for looking at my country is that of the conflict, even in cases - like the one at hand - that have nothing to do with it. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > This is unethical medicine by any standard used in the US. I cannot imagine the doctors involved in Israel will not be up for discipline. I think that because stuff like corneas and heart valves were taken, rather than full-ledged organs like kidneys and livers, it fell in a legal and ethical grey zone. One result of the affair is that matters have since been made much more clear-cut (if you’ll pardon my pun). In other words: “Surgeon Plays God, Pushes Ethical Boundaries.” Not exactly what I’d call news. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/30 "2009-12-21T09:36:33Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > It happened in the UK: [Alder Hey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alder_Hey_organs_scandal) children’s hospital in Liverpool did just such a thing with the bodies of dead children, without the knowledge or permission of their families. > > I disagree that this is a “good thing”. The families of the children were devastated - secular or not. Were any of those children Irish? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/31 "2009-12-21T09:47:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Look, if some white American doctor had been taking corneas from dead bodies, and it turned out that one out of ten of them was black, do you think the Rev. Al Sharpton would have summoned a press conference to decry the assault on African-American dignity? I don’t think even he would go that far. That means, in effect, that people here are being _less reasonable than Al Sharpton_. The situations aren’t really analogous. This is more like the same thing happening in some alternate-universe version of segregation-era America, where besides all the other problems both sides are off-and-on shooting and bombing and firing rockets at each other. Modern America’s racial tensions aren’t anywhere near as bad as what is happening in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/32 "2009-12-21T09:54:25Z")
Mayb, but that doesn’t change the fact that the case in question has nothing to do with race. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/33 "2009-12-21T10:12:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Were any of those children Irish? I’m sure a lot were - there’s a very large Irish immigrant or Irish descendancy population in Liverpool. But not captured or killed in battle… (Not quite sure why you’re asking that, since you’re the one who’s trying to get rid of allegations of relevance to the conflict in the use of Palestinians’ organs.) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/34 "2009-12-21T10:32:18Z")
My point is that no-one thought to ask the UK as to the ethnic origin of the bodies. It wasn’t an issue, nor should it have been. The same applies here. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/35 "2009-12-21T10:37:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It wasn’t an issue, nor should it have been. We haven’t got a vast number of disenfranchised Irish under our remit and occupation, though. If it had happened in Northern Ireland during, say, the Internment period, I’m sure the question would have been asked internationally. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/36 "2009-12-21T11:13:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Look, if some white American doctor had been taking corneas from dead bodies, and it turned out that one out of ten of them was black, do you think the Rev. Al Sharpton would have summoned a press conference to decry the assault on African-American dignity? … Yeah, I think ol’ Reverend Al would. No shame, that man. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/37 "2009-12-21T11:23:06Z")
Look, [Yehuda Hiss](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Hiss) is… a piece of work, and has been well known to be one for a while now. This particular scandal has been known for [nearly 10 years](http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1173179) (not the date of the article!) The fact that it took as long as it did to remove him from directorship of the Institute of Forensic Medicine, and that he retained his job as Chief Pathologist there, speak to the fact that he has a lot of political clout (and probably knows some dirty secrets about Persons of Power…) It’s “politics as usual,” he was apparently taking organs and selling them for (personal) profit, and the whole thing is a criminal/political scandal and has nothing to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict. In other news, politicians the world over sell their vote to highest bidder, CEOs abuse their position for personal gain, and Pope shits in woods… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/38 "2009-12-21T12:25:45Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > Look, [Yehuda Hiss](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Hiss) is… a piece of work, and has been well known to be one for a while now. This particular scandal has been known for [nearly 10 years](http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1173179) (not the date of the article!) > The fact that it took as long as it did to remove him from directorship of the Institute of Forensic Medicine, and that he retained his job as Chief Pathologist there, speak to the fact that he has a lot of political clout (and probably knows some dirty secrets about Persons of Power…) I think it has more to do with the fact that he is perceived as being very good at his job (his \*actual \*job of being a pathologist, not the organ trade). It’s the Israeli attitude: if you’re seen as someone who gets results, you can get away with almost anything. Remember that general a while back who tried to cover up his kid’s accident? Or Chiney at that strip club? Hell, go back a bit and you have Moshe Dayan with his philandering and archaeological looting and Ariel Sharon with just about everything. If they think you can get the job done, Israelis will forgive any moral failings. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/39 "2009-12-21T13:28:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think it has more to do with the fact that he is perceived as being very good at his job (his \*actual \*job of being a pathologist, not the organ trade). It’s the Israeli attitude: if you’re seen as someone who gets results, you \*\*can \*\*get away with almost anything. Remember that general a while back who tried to cover up his kid’s accident? Or Chiney at that strip club? Hell, go back a bit and you have Moshe Dayan with his philandering and archaeological looting and Ariel Sharon with just about everything. If they think you can get the job done, Israelis will forgive any moral failings. I would replace your “can” with “could and \*sometimes \*still can” – which is, I think, why Hiss (and also, in a different sphere, Olmert) ended up on the business side of a boot. “The bastards changed the rules!” Well, the process isn’t complete, but “the rules,” they are a-changing, gradually. Not offering any opinion on whether this is good, bad or merely different… For the sake of this discussion, at least, it just **is**. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/40 "2009-12-21T14:09:53Z")
I’m just curious if it is still anti-semitic to claim that thy did it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020.md?page=3)