# Blood Libel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020 "2009-12-21T02:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/41 "2009-12-21T14:41:52Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I’m just curious if it is still anti-semitic to claim that thy did it. Taking a 10 year old story, that has nothing intrinsic to do with the nationality nor the ethnicity of the (ex-)people involved and twisting it the way the Swedish story did **definitely** bespeaks an agenda. Whether that agenda is merely Anti-Israeli, or anti-Israeli driven by an undercurrent of antisemitism, or purely antisemitic is, as always, open to a heated argument… Including a lot of people who will argue that, at root, all of the above **are** antisemitism, with or without window dressing. I’d rather not go **there**. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/42 "2009-12-21T14:56:52Z")
The answer is, obviously, yes. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/43 "2009-12-21T16:57:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think it has more to do with the fact that he is perceived as being very good at his job (his \*actual \*job of being a pathologist, not the organ trade). It’s the Israeli attitude: if you’re seen as someone who gets results, you can get away with almost anything. Remember that general a while back who tried to cover up his kid’s accident? Or Chiney at that strip club? Hell, go back a bit and you have Moshe Dayan with his philandering and archaeological looting and Ariel Sharon with just about everything. If they think you can get the job done, Israelis will forgive any moral failings. Well I think that’s the problem right there. If you ever intimate that Israelis have moral failings you get called an anti-semite. Basically if you don’t treat Israelis as more moral than any other people on the planet you get called an anti-semite. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/44 "2009-12-21T16:59:41Z")
For those that are more familiar with the story, what details make the case that there was not a bias toward using Palestinians for this tissue harvesting? The fact that Israelis and Palestinians were included is not enough. This story has a weak resemblence to the Swedish newspaper story, but who knows if others like this Hiss guy are out there. Also, to believe and report on the Swedish story does not necessarily have anything at all to do with being anti-Israel or antisemetic. It could also mean the individual is pro-Palestinian and just upset over their perceptions of the Israeli government’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/45 "2009-12-21T17:10:16Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well I think that’s the problem right there. If you ever intimate that Israelis have moral failings you get called an anti-semite. Basically if you don’t treat Israelis as more moral than any other people on the planet you get called an anti-semite. Forget the fact that what you just wrote has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote. What’s amazing is that I criticize an aspect of Israeli society, and you seem to think that means that Israelis can’t be criticized. I mean… huh? > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > For those that are more familiar with the story, what details make the case that there was not a bias toward using Palestinians for this tissue harvesting? The fact that Israelis and Palestinians were included is not enough. Why would one assume there \*was \*a bias? I mean, seriously. You seem to be saying that Israelis should be assumed guilty until they prove their innocence. Is that the standard we have to live up to? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/46 "2009-12-21T17:28:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Forget the fact that what you just wrote has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote. What’s amazing is that I criticize an aspect of Israeli society, and you seem to think that means that Israelis can’t be criticized. I mean… huh? Calm down hoss, I wasn’t accusing you of anything. You’re taking this mighty personally, as pretty much happens anytime Israel is criticized. I’m an American, my country gets criticized far more often that people even remember your country exists. And I don’t flip out about it every time it happens. If someone is wrong I just roll my eyes. But the fact of the matter is anytime someone said this issue occurred before now they were called an anti-semite. And you here are expressing outrage that we even noticed it this time. I mean really the lesson is it’s not ok to criticize the Jews ever. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/47 "2009-12-21T17:42:59Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Calm down hoss, I wasn’t accusing you of anything. You’re taking this mighty personally, as pretty much happens anytime Israel is criticized. I’m an American, my country gets criticized far more often that people even remember your country exists. And I don’t flip out about it every time it happens. If someone is wrong I just roll my eyes. > > But the fact of the matter is anytime someone said this issue occurred before now they were called an anti-semite. And you here are expressing outrage that we even noticed it this time. I mean really the lesson is it’s not ok to criticize the Jews ever. I am trying, and sadly failing, to make any sense of this. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/48 "2009-12-21T17:44:22Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Calm down hoss, I wasn’t accusing you of anything. You’re taking this mighty personally, as pretty much happens anytime Israel is criticized. I’m an American, my country gets criticized far more often that people even remember your country exists. And I don’t flip out about it every time it happens. If someone is wrong I just roll my eyes. > > But the fact of the matter is anytime someone said this issue occurred before now they were called an anti-semite. And you here are expressing outrage that we even noticed it this time. I mean really the lesson is it’s not ok to criticize the Jews ever. But the issue at hand happened 10 years ago, and no-one ever tried to hide it. It simply has no relation to the Swedish story. Here’s a little cheat sheet: 1. If you say that an Israeli pathologist illegally removed and sold body parts in the 1990’s, and you base your accusation on multiple newspaper investigations and a government commission - then no, you’re not an anti-semite. 2. If you say that the Israeli military has its soldiers kill Palestinians so that it could harvest their organs to implant in Israeli patients, and you base your accusations on a single poorly-researched tabloid article - you’re probably not an anti-semite, but if you aren’t, then you \*are \*acting in a credulous and ignorant manner. I have no problem with criticism of my country; God knows I’ve done it enough myself. What bothers me is ignorance - or worse, \*willful \*ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/49 "2009-12-21T17:47:55Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But the issue at hand happened 10 years ago, and no-one ever tried to hide it. It simply has no relation to the Swedish story. Well a lot of us didn’t hear about it then. > [@](#): > > 1. If you say that an Israeli pathologist illegally removed and sold body parts in the 1990’s, and you base your accusation on multiple newspaper investigations and a government commission - then no, you’re not an anti-semite. Ok > [@](#): > > 1. If you say that the Israeli military has its soldiers kill Palestinians so that it could harvest their organs to implant in Israeli patients, and you base your accusations on a single poorly-researched tabloid article - you’re probably not an anti-semite, but if you aren’t, then you \*are \*acting in a credulous and ignorant manner. Sure > [@](#): > > I have no problem with criticism of my country; God knows I’ve done it enough myself. What bothers me is ignorance - or worse, \*willful \*ignorance. The way I see it is this story is very much like the Catholic pedophilia thing. The pedophiles were simply moved to another post, kind of like this guy. Competence should not forgive people their pecadilloes as it is the competent who have the greatest capacity to do harm. And whether or not the Palestinians were killed for this purpose is kind of immaterial. Palestinians killed by Israelis were used for this purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/50 "2009-12-21T17:59:06Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The way I see it is this story is very much like the Catholic pedophilia thing. The pedophiles were simply moved to another post, kind of like this guy. Competence should not forgive people their pecadilloes as it is the competent who have the greatest capacity to do harm. There was an official inquiry on the subject, concluding with a large-scale bureaucratic restructuring that included safeguards to ensure such events aren’t repeated. Yep, just like the Catholic Church. > [@mswas](#): > > And whether or not the Palestinians were killed for this purpose is kind of immaterial. Palestinians killed by Israelis were used for this purpose. As were Israelis killed by Palestinians. More of them, in fact. Does that make this the Palestinians’ fault? Can you prove Dr. Hiss didn’t have a deal with Hamas to supply him with dead Israeli soldiers? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/51 "2009-12-21T18:03:47Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > There was an official inquiry on the subject, concluding with a large-scale bureaucratic restructuring that included safeguards to ensure such events aren’t repeated. But the guy still has a job. > [@](#): > > Yep, just like the Catholic Church. Just like it. > [@](#): > > As were Israelis killed by Palestinians. More of them, in fact. Does that make this the Palestinians’ fault? Can you prove Dr. Hiss didn’t have a deal with Hamas to supply him with dead Israeli soldiers? This sort of misdirection is facile. The Palestinians didn’t harvest anyone’s organs. This sort of dishonest rhetoric does not appeal to me. As usual, “But the Palestinians are worse!”, the universal excuse to maintain victim status and absolve one’s side of responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/52 "2009-12-21T18:14:17Z")
This is a disgusting and unethical practice. I’m glad it’s not quite what some people have said it was, and that it’s stopped, although proving either one is going to be difficult. EDIT: And it’s staggering that the guy still has a job and didn’t go to prison. And yes, sorry folks - taking someone’s organs after they die without consent is not ethical. It’s ghoulish, even if it’s well-intentioned. My sympathies to people who require organ donations, but they do not get to claim your organs via finders keepers. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/53 "2009-12-21T18:26:57Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > This sort of misdirection is facile. The Palestinians didn’t harvest anyone’s organs. This sort of dishonest rhetoric does not appeal to me. > > As usual, “But the Palestinians are worse!”, the universal excuse to maintain victim status and absolve one’s side of responsibility. You really should have that sarcasm meter of yours looked at. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/54 "2009-12-21T18:33:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You really should have that sarcasm meter of yours looked at. Ok. fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/55 "2009-12-21T19:23:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I mean, seriously. You seem to be saying that Israelis should be assumed guilty until they prove their innocence. Is that the standard we have to live up to? No, I am assuming that Dr. Hiss is guilty because he has been found guilty. Anything else that you extracted from my sentence is pulled straight from your imagination. I was asking about the claim that there was no bias. The statement that Israelis and Palestinians alike were among those he harvested is not supportive of there being no bias. Anyway, an article I read (but now can’t find) said tissue was taken from 125 cadavers and that probably isn’t enough to judge bias unless it is exaggerated. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/56 "2009-12-21T20:45:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think it has more to do with the fact that he is perceived as being very good at his job (his \*actual \*job of being a pathologist, not the organ trade). It’s the Israeli attitude: if you’re seen as someone who gets results, you can get away with almost anything. There aren’t other forensic pathologists qualified to do this guy’s job? It’s not obvious from his Wikipedia entry that he’s indispensable. The nearest U.S. equivalent of this scandal that I can think of is [the illegal body part/cadaver trade at U.C.L.A.](http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/18/local/me-willedbody18) that was exposed a few years back. You could get black market torsos for $500. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/57 "2009-12-21T21:49:30Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > There aren’t other forensic pathologists qualified to do this guy’s job? It’s not obvious from his Wikipedia entry that he’s indispensable. Abu Kabir, where Hiss works, handles criminal forensic medicine for all of Israel (blame it on our relatively low murder rate). According to a Hebrew link I found, it employs 8 pathologists, all of whom were probably trained by Hiss. That’s it for the entire country. So yeah, I can see why they were hesitant to fire the guy. You don’t get much more indispensable than that. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/58 "2009-12-21T21:51:29Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I was asking about the claim that there was no bias. The statement that Israelis and Palestinians alike were among those he harvested is not supportive of there being no bias. Anyway, an article I read (but now can’t find) said tissue was taken from 125 cadavers and that probably isn’t enough to judge bias unless it is exaggerated. As I said before, the burden of proof falls on those who wish to prove bias. Can you do that? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/59 "2009-12-21T21:51:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Abu Kabir, where Hiss works, handles criminal forensic medicine for all of Israel (blame it on our relatively low murder rate). According to a Hebrew link I found, it employs 8 pathologists, all of whom were probably trained by Hiss. That’s it for the entire country. > > So yeah, I can see why they were hesitant to fire the guy. You don’t get much more indispensable than that. Oh Israel, the most highly educated insular backwater on the planet. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/60 "2009-12-21T22:18:02Z")
Whatever. Small countries are different from large countries. They have different problems and different solutions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020.md?page=4)