# Blood Libel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020 "2009-12-21T02:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/81 "2009-12-22T20:29:25Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Truth is a defense to libel/slander. There are prominent groups of Jews who ARE clannish and care about other Jews above all other people. What really gripes me is how them Jews are not only clannish, but _pushy_, always trying to get involved in things where they’re not wanted (seriously, these are long-running simultaneous stereotypes, spread by people who are apparently immune to irony). And the exact same charges could be (and have been) leveled against a gazillion ethnic groups and religions. A common denominator in whatever truth exists in these stereotypes is that persecuted groups naturally have some tendency to stick together for protection. And oddly, while I’d never heard of “Jewish phone books”, I’ve heard about and seen Christian business directories (for those Christians who only want to patronize _their_ version of “chosen people”). > [@](#): > > …the list goes on and on, and it’s an open secret that favortism is both shown and expected of Jews for Jews. Oooo, an _open_ secret? Could the super-clandestine spider’s web of Jewish intrigue have sprung a leak\*? Do you actually believe that Jews are far more inclined towards “tribal” preferences than other ethnic and religious groups? > [@](#): > > Heck, the recent negotiations for the release of [one Israeli soldier being swapped for a THOUSAND Palestinian captives](http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Israel-and-Hamas-Move-Toward-Prisoner-Swap-79900372.html) clearly indicates that a significant number of people value Israeli lives at something other than a 1-1 ratio over others. I find these sorts of “swaps” disturbing, because they encourage kidnappings in order to get terrorists freed, not because Israelis value their citizens’ lives. > [@](#): > > There are many Jews who don’t engage in this sort of selection or favortism, but a charge of clannishness or favortism for Jews over non-Jews is based in substantial amounts of fact, and should not be treated as _de facto_ evidence of anti-semitism. The “clannishness” bit is an absolutely classic anti-Semitic charge, and you’d do well to disassociate yourself from it. Enjoy. \*sorry about the mixed metaphors. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/82 "2009-12-22T21:34:28Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Truth is a defense to libel/slander. There are prominent groups of Jews who ARE clannish and care about other Jews above all other people. [Jewish phone books](http://www.thejewishbusinessdirectory.com/cgi-bin/bizdir/bizdir.pl), [Jewish country clubs](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1047834.html), [Jewish neighborhoods](http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/too-cold-for-nude-247960.html), the list goes on and on, and it’s an open secret that favortism is both shown and expected of Jews for Jews. > > I don’t particularly give a shit one way or another, but the Jewish people HAVE deliberately maintained their tribal identity. That, by definition, places tribe above random stranger. Heck, the recent negotiations for the release of [one Israeli soldier being swapped for a THOUSAND Palestinian captives](http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Israel-and-Hamas-Move-Toward-Prisoner-Swap-79900372.html) clearly indicates that a significant number of people value Israeli lives at something other than a 1-1 ratio over others. This isn’t judgment, it’s simple fact. > > There are many Jews who don’t engage in this sort of selection or favortism, but a charge of clannishness or favortism for Jews over non-Jews is based in substantial amounts of fact, and should not be treated as _de facto_ evidence of anti-semitism. > > Enjoy, > Steven Why should the parade of absolutely classic anti-Jewish tropes **not** be treated as _de facto_ evidence of anti-semitism? The fact that Jews have maintained their identity = proof of “clannishness”? That’s rather absurd; by those criteria, every single identifiable ethnic group is equally “clannish”. I for one have yet to benefit from this alleged “favoritism”; nor for that matter have I extended it to others. The fact that first world nations value the lives of their soldiers says nothing about what Jews, as an ethnic group, feel about non-Jews (though the deliberate conflation of “Jew” and “Israeli” is I think rather telling!). ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/83 "2009-12-22T21:48:33Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Do you actually believe that Jews are far more inclined towards “tribal” preferences than other ethnic and religious groups? No. In fact if someone were to ask me which ethnic/religious groups were the most insular, the most destructive to those they didn’t share their identity with, then Jews would be near the bottom of the list. While they’ve maintained their tribal identity, the rubber meets the road effect of this is very minor compared to fundamentalist Christianity/Islam, Militant Hutus/Serbs/Nazis, or any number of other self-identified sects. A Jew’s reaction to hearing that you’re not Jewish is generally a shrug of the shoulders, as opposed to a swing of a machete or the sound of a gunshot. It’s kind of like how one can acknowledge the general trend towards liberalism/libertarianism on the SDMB but still not give much of a shit unless someone starts acting like it doesn’t exist. And then acknowledging it becomes a simple point of fact instead of the cornerstone of an agenda. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > I find these sorts of “swaps” disturbing, because they encourage kidnappings in order to get terrorists freed, not because Israelis value their citizens’ lives. I really don’t know what to make of this particular prisoner swap. It sounds so messed up on many levels. On one hand the Israelis absolutely have an obligation to try to get their citizen, especially a soldier, back safe. On the other hand, if they’ve arrested 1000+ people, I would hope they had damn good reason to do so and letting a thousand criminals, some with the express desire to attack again, loose just makes no sense to me. The only way I can parse this is that they had a bunch of people detained on minor charges, which is problematic, or that they value the safety of this soldier more than the safety of all the others which will be put in harm’s way when this flood of terrorists hits the streets again. I’m sure the situation is more complicated, and the fact that there’s a exchange process happening at all, as opposed to giving no quarter on either side, is hopeful IMHO. So I choose to hope it will work out, but my expectations are low. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > The “clannishness” bit is an absolutely classic anti-Semitic charge, and you’d do well to disassociate yourself from it. I used that term because that’s what **FinnAgain** used. I tend to think of situations more anthropologically and the tribe is a social unit which has served humanity well in many instances, so who am I to judge? But when a tribe starts saying it’s not a tribe, that’s when I may speak out. Because it is clear that many Jews have made conscious effort to maintain and strengthen ties with other Jews in preference to non-Jews, and saying so is not necessarily indicative of an anti-semitic agenda. I can understand that it has been many times in the past, so I get why people look askance at it. But if we’re going to learn to get along on this planet, we have to give each other the benefit of the doubt and be honest about the state of the world as it is. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/84 "2009-12-22T23:14:15Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Truth is a defense to libel/slander. Then perhaps you should try some? The claim was that “The Chosen People” is deliberately misused to create a fictional concept of Jewish Supremicism that is tied to a religious sanction from God. That claim is true, as “The Chosen People” refers solely to the _burdens and obligations that Jews must carry and which gentiles can much more easily fulfill while being 100% as righteous and beloved of God._ You have, at best, just used a strawman and at worst pulled a bait and switch. > [@Mtgman](#): > > There are prominent groups of Jews who ARE clannish and care about other Jews above all other people. Even if there were “some”, you’d be committing the Fallacy of Composition, which lies at the heart of a good deal of racism, bigotry and prejudice. Further, you have proven no such thing. Jewish dating sites, campus Jewish groups, Jewish clubs, etc… show no evidence, at all, of being “clannish” and “caring about other Jews above all other people.” That’s a rather disgusting claim, and seeing as how virtually any group to which one can self-identify has such groups, you’re either forced to claim that they are all equally " clannish and care about others of their own kind above all other people." and if they all fit the bill equally than the charge means _nothing_… or you’ve created a truly disturbing double standard. > [@Mtgman](#): > > and it’s an open secret that favortism is both shown and expected of Jews for Jews. Yes yes, I’m sure you can find this “open secret” proudly discussed on such vibrant communities such as st-rm-frnt and their ilk. Of course it’s a nasty and vile fiction, but you can believe it if you really want. > [@Mtgman](#): > > but the Jewish people HAVE deliberately maintained their tribal identity. ~gasp!!!~ Shit, I guess the Hmong, Irish, Texas-Germans, WASP’s, etc… are all just as bad. It’s a well known open secret that you just can’t trust any white Anglo-Saxon Protestants, as they look out for each other first of all and favoritism is expected and shown all the time. > [@Mtgman](#): > > That, by definition, places tribe above random stranger. Generally when one says “by definition” they mean that it is true via denotation, not wildly inaccurate connotation. Just to clear up your ignorance, Jewish tradition says that to save one single human life is the same as saving the entire world, and destroying one single human life is the same as destroying the entire world. That Tikun Olam is at the heart of our purpose here on this planet. Which, in fact, _often places other above self._ Let alone “tribe”. Which was the whole point of asking “If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, who am I? If not now, when?” > [@Mtgman](#): > > Heck, the recent negotiations for the release of [one Israeli soldier being swapped for a THOUSAND Palestinian captives](http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Israel-and-Hamas-Move-Toward-Prisoner-Swap-79900372.html) clearly indicates that a significant number of people value Israeli lives at something other than a 1-1 ratio over others. This isn’t judgment, it’s simple fact. 1. So any random IDF soldier = Judaism/Jewishness/Jews now, eh? 2. No, just like “by definition” and “truth” not meaning whatever you want, “fact” has a denotation too. It indicates that Israel would rather get their soldiers back at almost any cost. It shows nothing about Israeli lives being “worth” more. But of course that too is a common slur with no backing at all. > [@Mtgman](#): > > a charge of clannishness or favortism for Jews over non-Jews No, just vile and dangerous ignorance. How someone acts on such fiction determines what label you should apply to them. > [@Marley23](#): > > The arrogance of it. The sheer presumption that society is entitled to dispose of your body as it sees fit, that your wishes and the wishes of your family at the time of your death are irrelevant because someone else has determined that society is entitled to your corpse. It’s well intentioned, but the presumptuousness and the implication that society owns your body is chilling. None of that makes it ‘ghoulish’, but I suppose we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I can’t see any permutation of “let life saving organs rot, it’s what he would have wanted.” that’s more moral, or savory, or honorable than saving lives with them. Yes, just like taxes, you owe a debt to society. Consider it an “organ tax” if you prefer. Heck, we’ve already had politicians invent a “death tax”, we can just rename it. 😃 That being said: > [@Marley23](#): > > And yes, it’s generally considered unethical to perform medical procedures on someone without their consent or the consent of someone acting on their behalf. I’ve agreed to this several times, and I see no purpose why you’d bring it up. And just as many times I’ve pointed out that _we are not dealing with people, we are dealing with meat that used to be a person._ ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/85 "2009-12-23T00:17:30Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > It’s kind of like how one can acknowledge the general trend towards liberalism/libertarianism on the SDMB but still not give much of a shit unless someone starts acting like it doesn’t exist. It’s more like someone dredging up a nasty stereotype about liberals - let’s say the one about how they hate America and want us weakened militarily and economically, and cherry-picking some opinion pieces and factoids to “prove” it, followed by acknowledgements that far-right conservatives are worse, and protestations of how one is simply being _honest_ about the state of the world so liberals shouldn’t get all excited, you know. :rolleyes: Except where the simile falls down is that liberals have not been consistently discriminated against and been targets of mass murder repeatedly in recent history. It is important to avoid casual references to liberals as defeatists and traitors if you want to avoid poisoning debate and be taken seriously. It’s essential to avoid falling into classic anti-Semitic stereotypes if you don’t want to be mistaken for a bigot. Speaking of tribes and such, I just saw an [interesting if somewhat incoherent opinion piece](http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/sns-200912181859tmstuemitchctntm-a20091220dec20,0,1989015.story) by Garrison Keillor, in which he rants about the ruination of Xmas songs (he’s ticked off at Unitarians for supposedly adulterating “Silent Night”, but seems especially pissed at Jews for having had the temerity to write many of the most popular Xmas songs): _Christmas is a Christian holiday – if you’re not in the club, then buzz off._ Well darn - after I spent all that time in the cold putting Xmas lights on the trees, helping Mrs. J. decorate our own indoor specimen and running around buying gifts! I’ll have to tell Mrs. J. (a lapsed Methodist) to put away her impressive collection of Santa ornaments (currently gracing the dining room). We’re not in the club, after all. Those chosen people have all the fun. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/86 "2009-12-23T01:28:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, just like taxes, you owe a debt to society. Consider it an “organ tax” if you prefer. My problem with society making the decision that I should donate my organs is that they may decide I’m probably not going to come of a coma, and they really, really need a liver, even mine. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/87 "2009-12-23T01:51:38Z")
I don’t see that as a necessary or even a probable consequence. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/88 "2009-12-23T02:06:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I can’t see any permutation of “let life saving organs rot, it’s what he would have wanted.” that’s more moral, or savory, or honorable than saving lives with them. The morality is in respecting a person’s right to make choices, even when they are incorrect. > [@](#): > > Yes, just like taxes, you owe a debt to society. Consider it an “organ tax” if you prefer. Heck, we’ve already had politicians invent a “death tax”, we can just rename it. 😃 I think you need to support the notion that people owe this particular debt. Taxes make sense in principle because they pay for services everyone, or at least a large majority, uses. I don’t see that extending to organs. > [@](#): > > I’ve agreed to this several times, and I see no purpose why you’d bring it up. Because it’s an issue here. You’re acting without the person’s consent and without the consent of people who can make decisions for them. The person no longer exists after dying, but if he’s expressed a preference or made a choice, that preference still exists and I think basic decency indicates that it should be respected. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/89 "2009-12-23T02:15:54Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Truth is a defense to libel/slander. There are prominent groups of Jews who ARE clannish and care about other Jews above all other people. [Jewish phone books](http://www.thejewishbusinessdirectory.com/cgi-bin/bizdir/bizdir.pl), [Jewish country clubs](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1047834.html), [Jewish neighborhoods](http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/too-cold-for-nude-247960.html), the list goes on and on, and it’s an open secret that favortism is both shown and expected of Jews for Jews. Yeah, it is pretty much unthnkable that a group that has been isolated and ostracized, (when they were not outright persecuted), would wish to establish internal support networks or refuges from the larger, persecuting society. > [@Mtgman](#): > > I don’t particularly give a shit one way or another, You tone contradicts your words. > [@Mtgman](#): > > but the Jewish people HAVE deliberately maintained their tribal identity. That, by definition, places tribe above random stranger. Actually, they tend to deliberately maintain their religion and the “tribal identity” tends to be forced upon them by those who do not share their beliefs. In those lands and those eras when persecution has faded, Jews have demonstrated a typical human tendency toward assimilation. When persecution has been more prevalent, they have tended to follow the human traits of either apostasy or tribalism. They have just done a better job of employing tribalism than some other groups. Regardless, the issue of the “Chosen People” is not one of Jews setting themselves up as better than their neighbors, but one of them perceiving that God chose them to hold them accountable to a stricter standard of behavior and folks who employ the phrase to claim (or imply) that they claim to be better are displaying ignorance of the phrase as well as misusing it as a slur. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/90 "2009-12-23T02:23:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I don’t see that as a necessary or even a probable consequence. _If_ “they” could decide I owe them my organs at death, they could just as arbitrarily decide I owed them if I were near death. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/91 "2009-12-23T02:51:58Z")
I do not and can not agree. There is a world of difference between taking no-longer-needed bits from a corpse and murdering someone in a coma in order to harvest their organs. You can have no possible use for them once ‘you’ is a thing of the past and all that’s left is a corpse. And at that point, your corpse can be used to give back to society and do some real good for potentially quite a few people with no actual downsides for anybody. The real travesty is that organs that could go to give people back quality of life, or even save lives go into the ground to rot instead. So yes, for a lifetime of participation in the social contract, when you’re dead that which you no longer need and which your family can no longer use should be treated in a manner that gives back to society and leaves the world in a bit better a situation than you found it in. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/92 "2009-12-23T03:00:53Z")
**TWEEEEEEET!** I realize that the discussion regarding the need for consent to harvest tissue or organs arose as an organic hijack to the thread, but it IS a hijack. Anyone who needs to continue that discussion should open a new thread. \*\* [/Moderating]\*\* ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/93 "2009-12-23T03:07:53Z")
Roger dodger. Back to the OP I suppose that I’d place myself in the second half of the Venn Diagram and point out that this story (which was in the news [roughly a decade ago.](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/12699)) has nothing to do with the Blood Libel allegations made recently about the IDF killing Palestinians in order to steal their organs, and its conflation is worrisome as is the timing (and its reception). Hiss’ behavior is no more an indictment of Israel as a whole than it is some sort of reason to credit baseless claims of deliberate murder and organ harvesting of Palestinians. Man, this was turning into a long thread, too. P.S. “organic hijack” He he he. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/94 "2009-12-23T03:15:53Z")
It was a conspiracy between Israel and ACORN to harvest enough organs to create an army of flesh golems to cast fraudulent votes for Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/95 "2009-12-23T03:19:58Z")
EDIT: I wrote this post at about 9:55 and didn’t hit submit until just now. I agree a new thread is called for, and I could move some of these posts to a new thread if anyone is interested. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > You can have no possible use for them once ‘you’ is a thing of the past and all that’s left is a corpse. Few people disagree with that - Rastafarians, maybe, some very orthodox Jews, and maybe the ancient Egyptians. Nobody who is debating here, as far as I know. > [@](#): > > And at that point, your corpse can be used to give back to society and do some real good for potentially quite a few people with no actual downsides for anybody. Right. The question is whether or not that good means people are entitled to the organs. > [@](#): > > The real travesty is that organs that could go to give people back quality of life, or even save lives go into the ground to rot instead. So yes, for a lifetime of participation in the social contract, when you’re dead that which you no longer need and which your family can no longer use should be treated in a manner that gives back to society and leaves the world in a bit better a situation than you found it in. That’s it? I think you’ve reversed the social contract here: you’ve participated in the social contract (giving up some liberty for security), therefore someone else can take your organs? Like I said, the participation logic might work for taxes, but society didn’t make or maintain your organs for you. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/96 "2009-12-23T03:21:14Z")
So Marley, what do you think about the timing of this re-released story and its reception in the media and public spheres? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/97 "2009-12-23T03:34:13Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > So Marley, what do you think about the timing of this re-released story and its reception in the media and public spheres? I’d like to know more about what was reported a decade ago, to see if the re-release is moving the story forward or just reviving it for shock value. The Swedish tabloid story definitely helped revive this but I don’t know if there is a reason it came back at this particular moment. I’m curious to see if there’s a public reaction in the U.S. because I wonder if some outlets will just stay away from this, for fear it will touch off antisemitism. Outside of the West I’m sure it’s going to get out there in a bigger way, and it’s a disastrous story because it can be summed up as “Israel took organs from Palestinians” and that’s not totally wrong, even if it omits a lot of details and is misleading. As if the ethical questions weren’t enough reason not to do this kind of thing… ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/98 "2009-12-23T03:48:07Z")
1. As for a new thread, I suppose you can move the posts if you want but I really did mean what I said to you in my last post, I think we’d just have to agree to disagree. It’s not like either of us can marshal facts either, as it’s all opinion and subjective value judgments. Still, I have no objection to you removing my posts from this thread and putting them into another as long as you make clear that I probably won’t be participating in that thread and I’m not ducking responses or anything. 2. Well, there was the story I posted above. From 2001: [ > [@](#): > > Ze’ev was killed in an IDF training accident on April 15, 1997. Following his death, his body was sent to the forensic institute. According to the parents, the body of their son was used for medical experimentation without their consent, experiments authorized by Hiss. > > An official complaint was filed at the time with the IDF leading to a three-month investigation that involved Israel Police. The investigation led to a recommendation that criminal charges be filed against Hiss. An criminal indictment has yet to be handed down in the case. > […] > Attorney Nitzan Darshan-Leitner, who is representing the parents of the soldier, is calling on the court to order the immediate handing down of a criminal indictment against Hiss based on the former case, unrelated to the findings of police in this latest case. > > Darshan-Leitner also represented the Sinclair Family of Scotland against Abu Kabir. In 1998, the Sinclairs charged that Hiss removed the heart and other body parts from their brother Alexander’s body, using them for commercial purposes. In that case, a settlement was reached by which the forensic institute made a compensatory payment to the family. ]([Soldier?s Family File Suit Against Dr. Yehuda Hiss | Israel National News](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/12699)) From 2003: [ > [@](#): > > MK Yisrael Eichler (United Torah Judaism) has proposed legislation to ban the performing of all autopsies unless a family member is present. The bill was prompted by a growing number of complaints and allegations against the Abu Kabir Forensic Institute and its director, chief pathologist Prof. Yehuda Hiss. Hiss has often been accused of stealing organs and body parts, and containers of organs and body samples from civilians and soldiers who were thought to have been buried whole were found in the institute. > […] > By January 2002, Hiss was in fact under police investigation for conducting illegal sales of body parts as well as for removing organs from 81 deceased persons without consent. Six months later, the Supreme Court rejected a petition by the Movement for Quality in Government demanding his suspension. ]([http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/47641](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/47641)) From 2004: [ > [@](#): > > Movement for Quality Government officials in their media release pointed out they have been working for three years to point out and document the irregularities and mounting complaints against Hiss, ranging from alleged removal of organs without permission of family members and performing unauthorized tests and other procedures on bodies. ]([Hiss Dismissal Applauded by Many | Israel National News](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/62156)) Now, I’ll grant that INN is more than a little bit of a fringe paper. My google fu is weak and the moment (and I’m pretty exhausted) and I haven’t tracked down all that much more at present. I got the links from [this blog](http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/a-little-background-on-yehuda-hiss-abu-kabir/). Perhaps one of our Hebrew speaking Dopers want to track down “The most important articles on this affair, by Ronen Bergman and Gai Gavra in the hebrew daily Yediot Achronot” and translate them for us. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/99 "2009-12-23T04:22:33Z")
Okay - so this didn’t get picked up in the West but it sounds like it was covered somewhat extensively in Israel. Stories involving real or perceived defiling or corpses, particularly for profit, is always going to get attention even if Israel isn’t involved. [Here is another recent example](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7192462.stm) - organs being taken from corpses and then sold. Then there was the UCLA thing, and there was that recent, well-covered money laundering/organ trafficking arrest that involved some rabbis. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/100 "2009-12-23T04:34:39Z")
**Mtgman** – in other words: Jews can be racist, just like other people? Oh my god, I didn’t know that! :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020.md?page=6)