# Blood Libel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020 "2009-12-21T02:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/121 "2010-01-02T03:11:51Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Could you point out any posts where you think people were extrapolating some larger lesson about Israelis from this? Probably your comment in the OP, for one: > [@](#): > > Israel admitted that it really was harvesting Palestinian organs without consent. **Israel** wasn’t harvesting organs without consent. One doctor was harvesting organs without consent. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/122 "2010-01-02T04:52:07Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > **Israel** wasn’t harvesting organs without consent. One doctor was harvesting organs without consent. And, apparently, harvesting both Palestinian & Israeli organs, without prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/123 "2010-01-02T09:57:32Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > **Israel** wasn’t harvesting organs without consent. One doctor was harvesting organs without consent. This is incorrect. Please read the article again. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/124 "2010-01-02T13:11:15Z")
> [@leander](#): > > This is incorrect. Please read the article again. No. You need to indicate where in the article there is an assertion that this was an action undertaken by the government. We’re over a hundred posts into the thread where it has already been established that it was a rogue operation. If you want to claim that the “article” contradicts that, then you need to quote the relevant passage. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/125 "2010-01-02T20:12:29Z")
Come on Tom, if we had a thread with a tangential relationship to Israel where someone wasn’t making claims that required ruthless fact-checking and debunking, I’d think I’d gotten alcohol poisoning over New Year’s and died, and that I was in Heaven now. This is very reassuring. For those who are curious, by the way, the Guardian has retitled the article. I guess the Ghost of Journalism Past bonked them on the noggin. P.S. I’d suspect (or hope) that the quibble above isn’t really about how Israel as a nation or government was involved, since it obviously wasn’t, but that it wasn’t only one doctor who was involved since he used his underlings to a degree. After all, the Guardian article (which gets basic facts wrong like when the story broke) says that “pathologists” were involved, and that means that there were two or three doctors involved… perhaps even as many as half a dozen or so at the same facility under the command of the same administrator!! (ahem) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/126 "2010-01-02T20:41:37Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Probably your comment in the OP, for one: I know reading things that are not written is popular. > [@](#): > > **Israel** wasn’t harvesting organs without consent. One doctor was harvesting organs without consent. And he wasn’t put in jail for it. Basically, the man that they put in charge of the department was doing it. So I guess you really can’t ever say a country is responsible for anything. America isn’t responsible for the war in Iraq, only the Pentagon, the Presidential administration and the soldiers fighting are responsible for the war in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/127 "2010-01-02T20:53:45Z")
If the head of the FBI tomorrow started dumpster diving, it wouldn’t be accurate to say “United States steals food from dumpsters!”. Every time Obama goes to bed with his wife, we don’t say “America sleeping with the first lady, we suspect she is rather sore!” And, in any case, there is a difference between official policies and rogue actions. Yes, we can say that the Israeli judicial/law enforcement apparatus did not prosecute the man. But the larger circles in which we draw conclusions, the more exacting we have to be in our formulations. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/128 "2010-01-02T22:40:13Z")
> [@leander](#): > > This is incorrect. Please read the article again. > [@tomndebb](#): > > No. You need to indicate where in the article there is an assertion that this was an action undertaken by the government. We’re over a hundred posts into the thread where it has already been established that it was a rogue operation. If you want to claim that the “article” contradicts that, then you need to quote the relevant passage. People are suggesting that it was one single rogue doctor that was doing this. You use the word “operation” so presumably you understand the difference. Here are a few quotes from the article: > [@](#): > > Israel has admitted \*\*pathologists \*\*harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others, without the consent of their families – a practice it said ended in the 1990s – it emerged at the weekend > > \ > > Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, \*\*specialists \*\*at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives. > > The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: “This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer.” > > Hiss said: “\*\*We \*\*started to harvest corneas … whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family.” (emphasis mine) Now we don’t really know if the Israeli government was involved or not; but we do know it was not one single doctor doing this. Some people will spin this any which way to support their bias. Others, amazing as it seems, will actually defend this disgusting activity. But let’s not pretend it was just one guy out there gathering bodies and cutting them up all on his own. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/129 "2010-01-02T22:45:54Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Come on Tom, if we had a thread with a tangential relationship to Israel where someone wasn’t making claims that required ruthless fact-checking and debunking, I’d think I’d gotten alcohol poisoning over New Year’s and died, and that I was in Heaven now. > This is very reassuring. > […] > P.S. I’d suspect (or hope) that the quibble above isn’t really about how Israel as a nation or government was involved, since it obviously wasn’t, but that it wasn’t only one doctor who was involved since he used his underlings to a degree. After all, the Guardian article (which gets basic facts wrong like when the story broke) says that “pathologists” were involved, and that means that there were two or three doctors involved… perhaps even as many as half a dozen or so at the same facility under the command of the same administrator!! > (ahem) Nailed it in one. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/130 "2010-01-02T22:48:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Nailed it in one. That you did. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/131 "2010-01-02T23:58:22Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Israeli government was involved or not. . . . Absent any new evidence, the current status of information indicates that the Israeli government was not aware of the situation and no evidence has been presented to indicate that Hiss and company’s actions were authorized by the government. You can claim that your objection was to the number reported in **Captain Amazing** ’s post, but since he was obviously emphasizing the lack of government involvement, noting that there is no government involvement is a judicious point, regardless how many of Hiss’s personnel were involved. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/132 "2010-01-03T00:00:28Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Nailed it in one. Nope, the government is complicit by not prosecuting the crime. And as Alessan has pointed out. There was a single government run facility that handled ALL of these functions, and the whole department was complicit. So the only way your FBI example is apt is if it involved the ENTIRE FBI and was hushed up by the government without any repercussions. I mean they DID put it to a stop, but still. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/133 "2010-01-03T00:05:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Nope, the government is complicit by not prosecuting the crime. You’re playing semantic games. Parts of the government are responsible for not prosecuting, they are not responsible for it going on. Like I said, there is a distinct difference between “did not prosecute after enough evidence was gathered to toss the guy out” and “responsible for it going on.” ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/134 "2010-01-03T02:40:31Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Oh Israel, the most highly educated insular backwater on the planet. You might want to see how many forensic psychology facilities there are in your own state, that are responsible for determining the capacity of (possibly\_ retarded folks to stand trial, and get them in such shape if not. I know that California has precisely 1 such facility. People are not easily replaced. I doubt other states are much different. And other countries? You think they are much better or different? Other specialized professions can get into all sorts of trouble ans till work. Entertainers, athletes, and so on. It is not uncommon for people to be in a position at work where TPTB have to think long and hard about weighing any malfeasance against the continuity of the program. Not everyone gets that luxury, but don’t pretend it doesn’t happen routinely. Why do you think Tiger Woods is in the news other than that this issue is coming up for him? A guy has an affair ir 12? Who cares? Tiger Woods does it and the stock market quakes. This can’t be news to anyone here can it? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/135 "2010-01-03T02:50:50Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You’re playing semantic games. Parts of the government are responsible for not prosecuting, they are not responsible for it going on. Like I said, there is a distinct difference between “did not prosecute after enough evidence was gathered to toss the guy out” and “responsible for it going on.” No you. 😉 The argument you’re making says that we can’t ever use ‘the government’ generically. ‘The government sent troops to Afghanistan.’, ‘No it didn’t, the Pentagon sent troops to Afghanistan.’, or even worse, ‘Some people at the Pentagon sent troops to Afghanistan.’ > [@not\_alice](#): > > You might want to see how many forensic psychology facilities there are in your own state, that are responsible for determining the capacity of (possibly\_ retarded folks to stand trial, and get them in such shape if not. > > I know that California has precisely 1 such facility. People are not easily replaced. I doubt other states are much different. And other countries? You think they are much better or different? No, they are not easily replaced, but even so if someone were abusing their position in California, they’d replace them and hire someone from a facility in New York. This is how it’s done with Police Chiefs. > [@](#): > > Other specialized professions can get into all sorts of trouble ans till work. Entertainers, athletes, and so on. It is not uncommon for people to be in a position at work where TPTB have to think long and hard about weighing any malfeasance against the continuity of the program. You can’t be seriously advancing this argument. An athlete caught intentionally hamstringing another player would indeed be expelled from the sport. We’re not talking about getting a DWI or raising fighting dogs here. We’re talking about a DELIBERATE abuse of one’s position. Michael Vick’s crime had NOTHING to do with his job. > [@](#): > > Not everyone gets that luxury, but don’t pretend it doesn’t happen routinely. Why do you think Tiger Woods is in the news other than that this issue is coming up for him? A guy has an affair ir 12? Who cares? Tiger Woods does it and the stock market quakes. What does Tiger Woods have to do with looking the other way when a government official deliberately abuses the authority of his position to make a personal profit? > [@](#): > > This can’t be news to anyone here can it? News? No. I am unclear as to why you think any of your post is relevant. But none of what you said is news to me. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/136 "2010-01-03T03:04:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The argument you’re making says that we can’t ever use ‘the government’ generically. ‘The government sent troops to Afghanistan.’, ‘No it didn’t, the Pentagon sent troops to Afghanistan.’, or even worse, ‘Some people at the Pentagon sent troops to Afghanistan.’ No, it doesn’t, that’s silly. The US government is indeed the body that declares war and orders troops into the area. If we were striving for accuracy, it would be even better to point out that actual congress criters/policy makers who sent troops into combat, but it wouldn’t be inaccurate to speak about the actions of the government, just not as accurate as possible. It would, however, be inaccurate to say that the US government was responsible for Watergate, and it would be that inaccurate _even if_ they chose not to do anything to Nixon. If, for example, we discovered that the Surgeon General and associated staff were all members of an evil Satanic baby-eating cult and the justice department opted not to press charges it would be: 1. absurd to say “United States government responsible for baby eating!” 2. absurd to say “United States government involved in baby eating!” 3. absurd to say “United States government responsible for baby eating due to noTht prosecuting baby eaters after the fact!” 4. not absurd to say “Justice Department and any who leaned on them responsible for failure to prosecute baby eaters!” That’s the distinction. Not _responsible for the act_, but _responsible for the lack of reaction after the fact_. It is not an unimportant distinction. Brazil, for instance, was not responsible for the Holocaust. Nor were various US aviation programs, right? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/137 "2010-01-03T04:08:20Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > due to noTht prosecuting Also known as “not prosecuting”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/138 "2010-01-03T05:11:10Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Brazil, for instance, was not responsible for the Holocaust. Nor were various US aviation programs, right? Not sure about Brazil, but I’m pretty sure that Hitler dreamed up the Holocaust after having a nightmare following the viewing of a film of a Vultee aircraft. Seems a pretty clear case of responsibility, to me. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/139 "2010-01-03T05:20:04Z")
Well played sir, well played. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/140 "2010-01-03T07:13:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Absent any new evidence, the current status of information indicates that the Israeli government was not aware of the situation and no evidence has been presented to indicate that Hiss and company’s actions were authorized by the government. > > You can claim that your objection was to the number reported in **Captain Amazing** ’s post, but since he was obviously emphasizing the lack of government involvement, noting that there is no government involvement is a judicious point, regardless how many of Hiss’s personnel were involved. I was responding to two statements: The first, that the Israeli govt was involved, is unknown. You seem to want to give them the benefit of the doubt. I find it odd that the military responded - so they knew it occured, but had no involvement. How did they gather the bodies? Who approved the transfer of organs? What was the chain of command? There are many questions that remain unanswered, but I know it’s much easier to hand wave them away. The second statement is simply false and should not go unchallenged, lest some simple folks think it was just one sole rogue doctor committing these horrendous acts all on his own. Now please provide your proof of the “current status of information [that] indicates that the Israeli government was not aware of the situation”. Has there been a formal investigation? Will there be? Or are you simply accepting “because they said so” as your evidence. Frankly, I find this thread amusing and sad. It’s amusing when the usual suspects come along and spin the hell out of things (FinnAgain being the most amusing of course - once he failed to convince anyone that organ harvesting was a _good thing_ he tried to spin things that it was just one doctor, then just one doctor and his subordinates, instead of an entire department. Gave me a good laugh as always!) The sad bit is that people will take these kinds of silly knee jerk reactions and extreme bias and use it to fuel more hatred of Israel. It’s a shame that people can’t simply admit when they fucked up and try to make amends instead of running behind every silly excuse in the book. And you wonder why people think both sides behave like children and will never make any progress! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020.md?page=8)