# Blood Libel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020 "2009-12-21T02:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/141 "2010-01-03T07:16:18Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, it doesn’t, that’s silly. The US government is indeed the body that declares war and orders troops into the area. If we were striving for accuracy, it would be even better to point out that actual congress criters/policy makers who sent troops into combat, but it wouldn’t be inaccurate to speak about the actions of the government, just not as accurate as possible. It would, however, be inaccurate to say that the US government was responsible for Watergate, and it would be that inaccurate _even if_ they chose not to do anything to Nixon. > > If, for example, we discovered that the Surgeon General and associated staff were all members of an evil Satanic baby-eating cult and the justice department opted not to press charges it would be: > > 1. absurd to say “United States government responsible for baby eating!” > 2. absurd to say “United States government involved in baby eating!” > 3. absurd to say “United States government responsible for baby eating due to noTht prosecuting baby eaters after the fact!” > 4. not absurd to say “Justice Department and any who leaned on them responsible for failure to prosecute baby eaters!” > > That’s the distinction. Not _responsible for the act_, but _responsible for the lack of reaction after the fact_. It is not an unimportant distinction. Brazil, for instance, was not responsible for the Holocaust. Nor were various US aviation programs, right? Fair enough, I concede. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/142 "2010-01-03T09:31:56Z")
"Well, okay, we don’t know for sure that the Israeli government didn’t authorize it… but how do we know for sure that not only did the Israeli government not authorize it but that they didn’t also lure little girls out of their homes by promising them kittens and then murdered them for their organs, and killed the kittens just for fun… and then took the kittens’ organs too… and then ate the kittens’ organs and raped some puppies??? There are important questions to answer here, stop spinning things with all this talk of facts and logic and epistemolawhatever, I’d much rather play a rousing game of But What If! And where do you get off saying that all organ donations should be mandatory unless countermanded ahead of time in writing, that’s the very definition of an extreme kneejerk bias that only favors Israel, I laugh at you! In fact, it’s people posting on message boards, just like you’re doing, that forces people to be bigoted against Israel!!! Look at what you’ve done!!!" ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/143 "2010-01-03T10:24:25Z")
Oh **FinnAgain** , you make me laugh, you really do. Too funny. If anyone wants to believe your nonsense and spin, they are of course free to read all your previous posts, including the ones where you say **It’s a good thing that people harvested organs.** Again, \*\*It’s the right and ethical thing to harvest organs. \*\* Of course, based on that logic we should also condone grave robbing. And maybe canabalism. Why not? People need to eat, right? You’re always good for a laugh, mate, if nothing else. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/144 "2010-01-03T10:32:45Z")
I like tea. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/145 "2010-01-03T10:58:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I like tea. Me too ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/146 "2010-01-03T13:50:02Z")
> [@leander](#): > > I was responding to two statements: The first, that the Israeli govt was involved, is unknown. You seem to want to give them the benefit of the doubt. I find it odd that the military responded - so they knew it occured, but had no involvement. The military responded because a number of soldiers were among the cadavers whose coreas and other tissue were harvested. > [@leander](#): > > How did they gather the bodies? Who approved the transfer of organs? What was the chain of command? There are many questions that remain unanswered, but I know it’s much easier to hand wave them away. > > The second statement is simply false and should not go unchallenged, lest some simple folks think it was just one sole rogue doctor committing these horrendous acts all on his own. > > Now please provide your proof of the “current status of information [that] indicates that the Israeli government was not aware of the situation”. Has there been a formal investigation? Will there be? Or are you simply accepting “because they said so” as your evidence. To quote someone up thread, go read the links–only this time, instead of reading only the link in the OP, read the subsequent links and posts that detailed the story as it broke nearly ten years ago. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/147 "2010-01-03T13:52:12Z")
> [@leander](#): > > If anyone wants to believe your nonsense and spin, they are of course free to read all your previous posts, including the ones where you say > > **It’s a good thing that people harvested organs.** > > Again, > > \*\*It’s the right and ethical thing to harvest organs. \*\* > > Of course, based on that logic we should also condone grave robbing. And maybe canabalism. Why not? People need to eat, right? Do not hijack this thread into a discussion regarding whether permission should be granted for organ harvesting. Open a new thread. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/148 "2010-01-03T17:23:16Z")
Speaking of things already posted, I do think it’s interesting to point out that not only did this story start to break in the late 1990’s, but the specific link between the Aftonbladet article and Hiss was discussed in print roughly _half a year ago_. [ > [@](#): > > Published August 26, 2009, > […] > But one part of the discredited Swedish story — the question of what happens to bodies after they arrive at morgues, whether dead from violence or from natural causes — may be worth closer examination. Black-market sales of organs taken from bodies without family consent is an international problem, one that has sparked scandals in both the United States and Israel, said Nancy Scheper-Hughes, who is a medical anthropologist at the University of California, Berkeley, and an expert in global organ trafficking. In 2004, Israel’s chief state pathologist was removed from his post due, in part, to ethical violations surrounding organ “harvesting” from dead bodies. > […] > The allegations against Hiss first came to light in 1998, after a Scottish tourist suspected of drug dealing died in a holding cell at Ben Gurion International Airport. After an autopsy in Israel that was overseen by Hiss, the Scotsman’s body was returned to his family, who had a second autopsy performed — which discovered that the dead man was missing his heart and a small bone at the base of his tongue. The family sued, and the scandal was well publicized in Israel and Scotland. > > In 2001, an Israeli Health Ministry investigation found that Hiss had been involved for years in taking body parts, such as legs, ovaries and testicles, without family permission during autopsies, and selling them to medical schools for use in research and training. He was appointed chief pathologist in 1988. Hiss was never charged with any crime, but in 2004 he was forced to step down from running the state morgue, following years of complaints. (The final straw, apparently, was when the body of a youth killed in a road accident was gnawed upon by a rat in Hiss’s lab.) > > Scheper-Hughes said that when she interviewed Hiss in 2004, he admitted that he had done “selective harvesting” of organs from bodies that came to his lab. > > The state inquiry found no evidence that Hiss targeted Palestinians; rather, he seemed to view every body that ended up in his morgue, whether Israeli or Palestinian, as fair game for organ harvesting. The families of dead Israeli soldiers were among those who complained about Hiss’s conduct. ]([Illicit Body-Part Sales Present Widespread Problem – The Forward](http://www.forward.com/articles/112915/)) Now, getting back to your argument mswas: I’m still getting up and awake and haven’t had a cup of caffeine yet, but the timeline seems to be, roughly: -In 1997 the IDF in concert with Israeli police investigated certain abnormalities (but not organ harvesting) in and autopsy conducted by Hiss on an IDF soldier’s corpse, and the police recommended that criminal charges be brought but they were not. -In or around 2001 the Hebrew-language paper, Yediot Achronot, launched an investigative journalism campaign which unearthed certain facts (I still wish one of our Israeli dopers would track those articles down and help translate). This in turn prompted the Health Ministry to start another investigation which led to the Attorney General ordering a (second?) police investigation in 2002. From the English-language articles it’s unclear exactly what the legal procedure was at that point, but it was clear that there hadn’t been a trial and that about half a year later the SCOI rejected a petition to have Hiss removed, but not, it seems, any sort of indictment or request for a trial. -In 2003, an MK from one of the smaller parties proposed legislation specifically prompted by hiss which would make it mandatory to have family members present at autopies and the IDF had already insisted that IDF doctors be present at any autopsy. -In or around May 2004, the Health Minister sacked Hiss from his post as chief pathologist. So, it’s clear that some but not all members of the government stonewalled or dragged their feet on a criminal indictment, others did their best to investigate/expose Hiss, and others took the actions available to them in order to sanction Hiss. It’s also clear that he may have had friends in very high places if the accusations of perjury are credible, since it is quite possible that he doctored reports _for_ someone who would not only owe him, but be vulnerable to blackmail. It’s also most likely that most if not all of the organ harvesting went on before the 2002 police investigation, as increased scrutiny and new measures would have made it difficult if not impossible in the months and years after that. As such it’s perfectly reasonable to say that those who allowed it to continue (assuming that they had a valid legal basis for intervening and ironclad proof ) were in fact responsible for allowing its continuation. It is unclear, however, exactly who knew what, could have done what, and when and who exerted influence to block what, and how. Hopefully we can get a translation of the original investigative journalism piece(s). ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/149 "2010-01-03T17:36:38Z")
Well it’s a good thing it’s taken care of. As I said if they wanted to make organ donation the default position in Israel, that’s cool. Hell, I’d be cool with it in America. But since it’s not the norm it’s pretty skeevy to be selling organs for money. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/150 "2010-01-03T19:47:32Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > (I still wish one of our Israeli dopers would track those articles down and help translate). (30 minutes later…) No can do… ☹ There’s **some** followup to the original Investigative Report on Yediot Aharonot’s site, but I can find no trace of the original report itself, neither on Y.A.'s poor excuse for an archive, nor through Google Israel. If I have some more spare time maybe I’ll give it another whirl tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/151 "2010-01-03T19:52:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The military responded because a number of soldiers were among the cadavers whose coreas and other tissue were harvested. Cite please. > [@](#): > > To quote someone up thread, go read the links–only this time, instead of reading only the link in the OP, read the subsequent links and posts that detailed the story as it broke nearly ten years ago. You still have not provide any cites or commented on any of my questions. You’re simply hand waving it away. To paraphrase someone up thread – No. You need to indicate where in the article there is an assertion that this was an action unknown by the government. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/152 "2010-01-03T19:56:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Do not hijack this thread into a discussion regarding whether permission should be granted for organ harvesting. Open a new thread. > [/Modding] You’re kidding, right? FinnAgain brings up his support of organ harvesting in several posts earlier and you’re accusing me of hijacking the thread?! That’s some bizarre modding tomndeb. Care to explain? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/153 "2010-01-03T20:36:39Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > (30 minutes later…) No can do… ☹ There’s **some** followup to the original Investigative Report on Yediot Aharonot’s site, but I can find no trace of the original report itself, neither on Y.A.'s poor excuse for an archive, nor through Google Israel. > > If I have some more spare time maybe I’ll give it another whirl tomorrow. Thanks much, fighting ignorance is a long slog on the best of days (and in the best of threads ;)) ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/154 "2010-01-03T21:57:56Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Thanks much, fighting ignorance is a long slog on the best of days (and in the best of threads ;)) At last, something we can agree on! 😛 Btw, it appears that there may now be a formal investigation. Will be interesting to see how that goes. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/155 "2010-01-03T22:35:46Z")
Can’t say enough about learning what you’re talking about before you make claims, or about how it’s kinda neat to read a thread before you post in it. I know it’s a crazy suggestion, but you might just try it. You can now go back to deliberately ignoring all the information you’ve been provided with while you sling fallacy driven arguments-by-insinuation and complaining that because you’re deliberately ignorant of the facts and casting slime-via-suggestion that anybody else who’s been reading must be a horribly knee jerk spinners and universal policies that apply to all show drastic favoritism for only one group, which luckily enough your keenly analytical, good faith argument could point out. Yes yes, we all bow to your ability to choose ignorance over knowledge and craft baseless insinuations based on a trifecta of the fallacies of argument from ignorance, shifting the burden of proof and proving a negative. Truly, a miracle of objective clarity and quality debate. Or we could just assume that your posts are fractal and one contribution is as valuable as another, and you could stop gracing us with your wisdom and go practice the art of psychic divination on another thread’s topic. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/156 "2010-01-03T23:53:18Z")
Yes, the fight against ignorance is indeed a long hard slog. 😛 Now if you don’t mind I think I’ll ignore your typical ridiculous over the top drivel post. Frankly I find it laughable that you accuse me of ignorance after going on and on about the great merits of illegally harvesting body organs. Hilarious! I am however genuinely interested in hearing tomndebb’s comments and cites. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/157 "2010-01-04T00:19:43Z")
> [@leander](#): > > You’re kidding, right? FinnAgain brings up his support of organ harvesting in several posts earlier and you’re accusing me of hijacking the thread?! > > That’s some bizarre modding tomndeb. Care to explain? Easily: I noted that his discussion with others on the topic was not pertinent to this thread and [told them all to stop](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11917069&postcount=92). Everyone else has posted in accord with my directions, except that you are now trying to raise the issue, again. Take it to a new thread if you find it important. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/158 "2010-01-04T00:24:31Z")
> [@leander](#): > > You still have not provide any cites or commented on any of my questions. You’re simply hand waving it away. It is not handwaving to note that you are explicitly refusing to read posts by posters you have chosen to ignore. At this point, insisting that I provide information that has already been posted makes you appear to be trolling and I am not going to play your game. Stop this behavior, as well. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/159 "2010-01-04T00:38:32Z")
As the OP, I officially declare this thread over. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020/160 "2010-01-04T00:54:54Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It is not handwaving to note that you are explicitly refusing to read posts by posters you have chosen to ignore. At this point, insisting that I provide information that has already been posted makes you appear to be trolling and I am not going to play your game. > > Stop this behavior, as well. I have asked YOU for cites to your claims. You are refusing. Do not fucking call me a troll. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blood-libel/522020.md?page=9)