# Bloody Sunday **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657 "2005-04-16T19:07:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/1 "2005-04-16T19:07:09Z")
I just finished watching the film [Bloody Sunday](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0280491/) (2002, dir. Paul Greengrass). The movie is a documentary like reconstruction of the events of January 30, 1972, in which British soldiers fired on unarmed demonstrators, killing 13 and wounding 14. The movie was a pretty visceral experience, and it was a good intro to the events. Previously I knew almost nothing about it save for the U2 song. However, the film lacks backstory and context, so I’m hoping to get that from the SDMB. For those who have seen the movie, and know something of the events, was the film accurate, in your opinion? The film gives the impression that the troubles really moved into full swing after 1/30/72. Is this true? If it is true, why was there such a huge military presence in Derry at the time, including Paratroopers? I’m really looking for insight from Irish and British dopers, but anyone with knowledge will be appreciated. Note to mods: I’m putting this here rather than in CS because I’m interested in learning about the politics and history behind the events the movie depicts, rather than in discussing the movie itself. Since this is probably a pretty controversial topic, it didn’t seem appropriate for GQ either. ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/2 "2005-04-17T01:18:33Z")
_For those who have seen the movie, and know something of the events, was the film accurate, in your opinion?_ I haven’t seen the movie but I imagine its fairly accurate, Greengrass also directed a film on the Omagh bombing and it wasn’t sensationalised. _The film gives the impression that the troubles really moved into full swing after 1/30/72. Is this true?_ I believe that 1972 was the single most violent year of the Troubles with several hundred deaths and the very real fear that Northern Ireland was sliding into full-scale civil war, indictitive of the chaotic situation is that for many of the murders nobody is sure of who exactly killed them, this is a time when ordainary people After 1972 things slowly began to settle into a stalemate situation with the number of deaths per year in the double-figures range, the “acceptable level of violence” in the infamous words of a British secretary or state. Gradually by the late 80’s all sides realised that the war could rumber on this way indefinitely and that an alternative would have to be found, that alternative became the peace process. _If it is true, why was there such a huge military presence in Derry at the time, including Paratroopers?_ The civil authorities in NI were unable to handle the situation which is why the British soldiers were present, by the mid to late 70’s a process of “Ulsterization” began to take place with responsibility gradually being handed back to the local authorities and the British army on call for and problematic situations. _I’m really looking for insight from Irish and British dopers, but anyone with knowledge will be appreciated._ I’m from Northern Ireland so I’m probably not entirely an unbiased source. 😃 Here is a link to one of the best sites dealing with the conflict. [http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/](http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/) ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/3 "2005-04-17T01:19:45Z")
Bugger it, for some reason several paragraphs of that post went missing… ---
**Author:** ![finn007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90db22/32.png) [@finn007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finn007)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/4 "2005-04-17T03:06:05Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > I just finished watching the film [Bloody Sunday](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0280491/) (2002, dir. Paul Greengrass). The movie is a documentary like reconstruction of the events of January 30, 1972, in which British soldiers fired on unarmed demonstrators, killing 13 and wounding 14. The movie was a pretty visceral experience, and it was a good intro to the events. Previously I knew almost nothing about it save for the U2 song. However, the film lacks backstory and context, so I’m hoping to get that from the SDMB. > > For those who have seen the movie, and know something of the events, was the film accurate, in your opinion? > > The film gives the impression that the troubles really moved into full swing after 1/30/72. Is this true? > > If it is true, why was there such a huge military presence in Derry at the time, including Paratroopers? > > I’m really looking for insight from Irish and British dopers, but anyone with knowledge will be appreciated. > > Note to mods: I’m putting this here rather than in CS because I’m interested in learning about the politics and history behind the events the movie depicts, rather than in discussing the movie itself. Since this is probably a pretty controversial topic, it didn’t seem appropriate for GQ either. I was there and i shall never forget i was 31 years old. i can only echo the words of the coroner at the inquests,and this coroner was an ex british soldier with rank of i believe major **Gentlemen i can only come to one conclusion,this was murder,sheer bloody murder** Those paras were beyond control,excited ,nervous,but spoiling to kill and this was instilled into them by their ground commander WILFORD A name i will never forget. so to me …why was i there! I was a member of the civil rights movement protesting against internment and it should be mentioned so was IVAN COOPER who was also protestant,and a member of the newly formed SDLP political party f it is true, why was there such a huge military presence in Derry at the time, including Paratroopers… **it was paras and no one else but paras that were used.** The film did its best but it could not convey that murderous day when the dogs of war were let loose on unarmed civilians. recruitment to the IRA went up by 12000 And the paras paid a price sometime later when 19 of them were killed by the ira at a place called warrenpoint-----the biggest single loss the paras suffered since WW2 So who won…like any war NO ONE all were losers. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/5 "2005-04-17T03:07:35Z")
The first “Sunday, Bloody Sunday” song, back in 1972, was by John Lennon and the Plastic Ono Band on that album that all the critics hated, _Some Time in New York City._ But “Sunday, Bloody Sunday” had one of Lennon’s best lines ever: _ **"Not a soldier boy was bleeding when they nailed the coffin lids"** _ Classic rabble rousing. ---
**Author:** ![finn007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90db22/32.png) [@finn007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finn007)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/6 "2005-04-17T03:14:17Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The first “Sunday, Bloody Sunday” song, back in 1972, was by John Lennon and the Plastic Ono Band on that album that all the critics hated, _Some Time in New York City._ But “Sunday, Bloody Sunday” had one of Lennon’s best lines ever: > > _ **"Not a soldier boy was bleeding when they nailed the coffin lids"** _ > > Classic rabble rousing. \*\*Classic truth,which everyone is afraid of and i often wonder why? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/7 "2005-04-17T04:31:06Z")
I’m not disparaging it by calling it “rabble rousing,” just describing the style in which the stark truth was presented. As a line of a song, it works really well because of the rhythm. Lennon chanted it out solo while the the band paused playing, just before the chorus. He knew that was the strongest line in the song and highlighted it. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/8 "2005-04-17T16:51:11Z")
Well it was Sunday Bloody Sunday When they shot the people there The cries of 13 martyrs Filled the Free Derry air Is there anyone amongst you Dare to blame it on the kids? Not a soldier boy was bleeding When they nailed the coffin lids [_Remaining lyrics replaced by link to site with lyrics and commentary._](http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/john_lennon_irish_roots.htm) Johanna sez: This is what protest songs used to be: topical, current, and vital. In the old days they were broadsheet ballads sold in the streets for a penny and bawled in the pubs. In the '60s and early '70s they were 45 RPM singles that could be composed, recorded, pressed, and released in a jiffy, in response to some outrage on the news. Remember Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young singing “Four dead in Ohio”? Ah, those were the days. _Gotta get down to it Soldiers are gunning us down_ ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/9 "2005-04-17T16:57:21Z")
Please do not post the entire lyrics of songs, as it is a copyright violation. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/10 "2005-04-17T21:20:01Z")
How can you be sure the film is unbiased? The soldiers who were there state that they were fired upon. There was a recent inquiry, but that was a political sop to the IRA / Sinn Fein. > [@](#): > > If it is true, why was there such a huge military presence in Derry at the time, including Paratroopers? Ironically, the army were originally there to defend the catholics. ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/11 "2005-04-17T23:06:52Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > How can you be sure the film is unbiased? The soldiers who were there state that they were fired upon. There was a recent inquiry, but that was a political sop to the IRA / Sinn Fein. > > Ironically, the army were originally there to defend the catholics. The Bloody Sunday Enquiry was very far from merely being a political sop to the IRA and Sinn Fein, unless you think that the entire Catholic population of NI are members of or affiliated to those two organisations? And I’m sure there are plenty of other people who would like to know exactly what happened that day. Personally I’m of the opinion that the full truth will never be known, its far too politically loaded for that. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/12 "2005-04-18T13:55:24Z")
Thanks for all the replies. I was offline on sunday and just managed to get my internet connection working. I appreciate your link **MidwinterF1**. I’ll look into it and come back with more questions, maybe. I was hoping to ask **finn007** for more of his recollections, but I guess that wont be happening. Ah, well. People should see the movie. It’s well made. On the DVD the real Ivan Cooper talks to the person who plays him (James Nesbitt.) I imagine he wouldn’t do that if he felt the movie was inaccurate or sensationalized. The British don’t come off well, but they are portrayed as human beings, not monsters. Basically they come off as frustrated and ill trained for the law enforcement job they are required to do. I guess a lesson is that it’s problematic at best to have crack military units do law enforcement. (hint, hint.) The Irish are portrayed sympathetically, but not as saints and martyrs. Ivan Cooper is portrayed as being unable to control the rowdier riot-prone elements in the parade. Ultimately it was the Paras that fired live ammo into the crowd, though. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/13 "2005-04-18T14:16:36Z")
My father was also there and at the burning of the British Embassy in Dublin after it. He rarely talks about it as it makes him angry as hell. The Irish government went through a bit of a crisis afterwards as the public didn’t feel it came out quickly enough against the British Action. On the morning of the Embassy burning there was also a very large crowd that headed for the Dáil(government buildings) but they were headed off by the police and army. The Embassy was basically let burn by the authorities to lower the pressure building in the crowd. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/2/newsid\_2758000/2758163.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/2/newsid_2758000/2758163.stm) ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/14 "2005-04-18T14:18:59Z")
[http://www.bloodysundaytrust.org/](http://www.bloodysundaytrust.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/15 "2005-04-18T14:31:09Z")
Oh, and **Midwinter** , if you could find those missing paragraphs I’d be interested in reading them. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/16 "2005-04-18T14:44:39Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > How can you be sure the film is unbiased? The soldiers who were there state that they were fired upon. There was a recent inquiry, but that was a political sop to the IRA / Sinn Fein. > Ironically, the army were originally there to defend the catholics. A political SOP to Sinn Fein? If that were so, why were the soldiers allowed to give testimony in secret, and why was there continued refusal from Whitehall to fully cooperate with the inquiry? Given the disgusting tactics of the British government with regard to the original tribunal under Lord widgery, I honestly believe that a fair enquiry will never take place. the soldiers may state they were fired on, but there is absolutely no evidence to support this. The British army were never there to protect Catholics, only there to protect the interests of the state. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/17 "2005-04-18T16:54:58Z")
> [@](#): > > The British army were never there to protect Catholics, only there to protect the interests of the state. Well, those two reasons are not inherently mutually exclusive. The reason that the Army was originally sent in to NI was at the request of Catholic groups who petitioned the government for protection since the RUC was not providing it. Now, the individual aims of government ministers, military commanders, and troops were clearly not supportive of the Catholics, but the irony of the situation that it was Catholic pleas that brought the military into the picture has not been lost on anyone who watched that disaster unfold. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bloody-sunday/299657/18 "2005-04-18T17:08:52Z")
The army was called in as during the Battle of the Bogside as the State basically lost control. There were B-Specials(Police) and Loyalist civilians attacking Catholic areas that were being defended by men, women and children at barricades and rooftops. There are stories of the troops been given tea by the Catholics and thanked for coming in and taking control from the B-Specials. This did not last long however. > [@](#): > > Sectarian clashes occurred as the Apprentice Boys marched past the perimeter of the Catholic Bogside. The RUC intervened and, assisted by a Protestant mob, charged at the nationalists forcing them into William Street. Within hours rioting had escalated into what local priest Fr Mulvey described as a “community in revolt”. The police were stoned and petrol bombed as they made their way in riot gear into the Bogside. After two days and nights of continuous rioting the police were exhausted. > > On the afternoon of Thursday 14 August the new Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, James Chichester-Clarke, called the British Prime Minister Harold Wilson and asked for troops to be sent to Derry. Unknown to Chichester-Clark troops were already on standby. Just after 4.00pm a company of soldiers from the Prince of Wales Own Regiment relieved the police of their duty. What came to be known as the Battle of the Bogside had ended with direct intervention from Britain in the affairs of Northern Ireland. > > Riots erupted in Belfast after the Civil Rights Association called on Catholics to take pressure off the Bogside by stretching police resources. Five Catholics and one Protestant were killed on 14 August. The following day troops were deployed in Belfast to contain the violence but too few in number to have any effect. That night a Protestant mob burnt almost every Catholic house in Bombay Street. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/origins/bogside.shtml](http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/origins/bogside.shtml)