# Blue states have better schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2013, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387 "2013-08-28T11:48:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/1 "2013-08-28T11:48:09Z")
Or possibly better pupils (meaning, most likely, smarter parents). That’s my takeaway from [this finding](http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-embracing-misinformation-on-obama/2013/08/27/bb73493a-0f4f-11e3-bdf6-e4fc677d94a1_story.html?hpid=z2): > [@](#): > > Obama conspiracy theories have flourished in the Deep South, where wealth and educational levels are both low. This makes sense: Where voters are least informed, they are most susceptible to misinformation peddled by talk-radio hosts and the like. > > For this reason, voters in reliably Republican states, which tend to be poorer, with lower test scores, are more vulnerable to misinformation. To use one measure, the 2011 National Assessment of Educational Progress test of eighth-grade reading, all but one of the top 10 states were in Obama’s column in 2012. Of the 19 doing worse than average, 14 were red states. And it also just confirms my sense that the Deep South (which I’ve never visited although I did grow up in North Carolina) is an ignorant backwater. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/2 "2013-08-28T12:36:58Z")
Similar results are observed on most metrics: health and healthcare, obesity rates, crime rates, teenage pregnancy and divorce… I was reflecting on this and it occurred to me that the red states are also net takers of federal dollars. Since Republicans are always going on about performance based standards, I think it’s time to ask, “What are they doing with our money?” If they can’t show Improvement, it’s time to cut them off. ---
**Author:** ![Oedipus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Oedipus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oedipus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/3 "2013-08-28T12:49:16Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I was reflecting on this and it occurred to me that the red states are also net takers of federal dollars. Not that I don’t believe you…but can I get a cite on that? I’d love to see that actual numbers. ---
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/4 "2013-08-28T13:14:41Z")
Yep I live in North Carolina and I can confirm I am an ignorant hick barely capable of dressing myself and listen to Rush everyday ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/5 "2013-08-28T13:50:00Z")
> [@Oedipus](#): > > Not that I don’t believe you…but can I get a cite on that? I’d love to see that actual numbers. [Here](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/11/states-federal-taxes-spending-charts-maps)’s an article on it. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/6 "2013-08-28T14:50:35Z")
This can be answered in two words [Simpsons paradox.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson's_paradox) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/7 "2013-08-28T15:05:34Z")
So, **puddleglum** , what do you think would be the better way of looking at the data, to support a different conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/8 "2013-08-28T15:13:08Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > Yep I live in North Carolina and I can confirm I am an ignorant hick barely capable of dressing myself and listen to Rush everyday Don’t feel bad, not every Rush fan is a libertarian ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/9 "2013-08-28T15:18:44Z")
> [@Oedipus](#): > > Not that I don’t believe you…but can I get a cite on that? I’d love to see that actual numbers. It’s statistical hand-waving. By and large, states don’t pay taxes or receive federal money; individuals do. The numbers shown essentially just reflect progressive taxation and the fact that wealthy people tend to live in and around large cities rather than rural areas. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/10 "2013-08-28T15:22:37Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Or possibly better pupils (meaning, most likely, smarter parents). Top 10 states by school quality: from [Quality Counts 2013 - State Report Cards](http://www.edweek.org/ew/qc/2013/state_report_cards.html) MD MA NY VA AR FL GA NJ WV KY About even blue/red, wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/11 "2013-08-28T15:23:43Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This can be answered in two words [Simpsons paradox.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson's_paradox) Can you state how Simpson’s paradox explains the observed relationships? One has to demonstrate that Simpson’s paradox has affected an observed relationship. One cannot just wave a hand over any relationship and magically utter “Simpson’s paradox” to make it go away. I see a relationship between alcohol intake and intoxication levels. Simpson’s paradox! This isn’t the correlation you were looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/12 "2013-08-28T15:25:20Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It’s statistical hand-waving. By and large, states don’t pay taxes or receive federal money; individuals do. The numbers shown essentially just reflect progressive taxation and the fact that wealthy people tend to live in and around large cities rather than rural areas. That, and the fact that both military spending and Social Security payments are included in “federal spending” in those stats, and the “red states” tend to have more army bases and pensioners. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/13 "2013-08-28T15:26:42Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This can be answered in two words [Simpsons paradox.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson's_paradox) BART: Errrrmmm . . . “You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t”? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/14 "2013-08-28T15:28:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So, **puddleglum** , what do you think would be the better way of looking at the data, to support a different conclusion? In every school district in the country, asians score better on tests than whites, and whites score better than latinos and blacks. So states with fewer black and latinos students do better on tests. For example black students in Texas do better on tests than black students in Wisconsin, hispanic students in Texas do better on tests than hispanic students in Wisconsin, and white students in Texas do better on tests than white students in Wisconsin. The gap between white students and black students on tests is much smaller in Texas than in Wisconsin. Yet on average, students in Texas score worse on tests than students in Wisconsin. People that vote Republican are more susceptible to Obama conspiracy theories, just as people that vote Democrat are more susceptible to Bush and Cheney conspiracy theories. Education does not enter in to it. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/15 "2013-08-28T15:32:32Z")
Looking at who is funding or funded by the federal government certainly is not the be all end all of ratifying state policy, but it is relevant. It means that one can’t look at school results and say “sure, their schools are better, but they get craploads of money from the feds! If we didnt send them so much money their schools would suck!” Not that anyone is saying that in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/16 "2013-08-28T16:53:53Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It’s statistical hand-waving. By and large, states don’t pay taxes or receive federal money; individuals do. The numbers shown essentially just reflect progressive taxation and the fact that wealthy people tend to live in and around large cities rather than rural areas. How is it that individuals receive more federal money than states? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/17 "2013-08-28T16:54:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And it also just confirms my sense that the Deep South (which I’ve never visited although I did grow up in North Carolina) is an ignorant backwater. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/18 "2013-08-28T17:18:35Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > In every school district in the country, asians score better on tests than whites, and whites score better than latinos and blacks. So states with fewer black and latinos students do better on tests. > For example black students in Texas do better on tests than black students in Wisconsin, hispanic students in Texas do better on tests than hispanic students in Wisconsin, and white students in Texas do better on tests than white students in Wisconsin. The gap between white students and black students on tests is much smaller in Texas than in Wisconsin. Yet on average, students in Texas score worse on tests than students in Wisconsin. > > People that vote Republican are more susceptible to Obama conspiracy theories, just as people that vote Democrat are more susceptible to Bush and Cheney conspiracy theories. Education does not enter in to it. 😕 This presumes that academic performance level is fixed by race, so that measures of performance by school or region are impacted by student race. An alternative, less racist and eminently more likely explanation is that disproportionately more black kids are educated in red state schools and suffer poorer outcomes as a result. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/19 "2013-08-28T17:24:35Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > An alternative, less racist and eminently more likely explanation is that disproportionately more black kids are educated in red state schools and suffer poorer outcomes as a result. See the “black students in Texas do better on tests than black students in Wisconsin” part of the post to which you were responding. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/20 "2013-08-28T17:28:41Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > How is it that individuals receive more federal money than states? What federal money are you thinking of that goes to states? Block grants and the like may be administered by the states but are distributed to individuals. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387.md?page=2)