# Blue states have better schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2013, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387 "2013-08-28T11:48:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/61 "2013-08-29T21:45:24Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It is amusing that you can be indignant about a perceived slur that was probably not intended as such (I learned about it on this board and have never seen it brought up elsewhere) I have seen it brought up in many places, though obviously it is generally only Democrats who do so. But anyone paying attention to the news would, I would think, pick this up after a while if they were discerning and can make basic inferences. Republican politicians talking on TV refer to the “Democrat Party”, while Democratic politicians refer to the “Democratic Party”. (Meanwhile, both sides say “Republican Party”.) Since the people who say “Democrat Party” are not Democrats, and generally do not have kind things to say about Democratic policies, that ought to be a hint. As to your allegation of hypocrisy, I dispute that. I do not deny Republicans the right to say “Democratic Party policies are terrible” or any variant of same. I only ask that they use the correct name for the party. Similarly, I have said that my impression is that the Deep South is not a desirable place to live. And yes: I even said that I have an impression of it being an “ignorant backwater”. But I have not used a name for the region that is not generally understood to be its actual name, in particular a name for the region that its residents pointedly avoid using. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/62 "2013-08-29T21:46:27Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Are you going to dispute that the average white Southerner in the 1950s was more racist than the average white non-Southerner? If you do dispute that, how do you explain that civil-rights legislation was passed while Southern senators attempted to filibuster it? > > If you don’t dispute it, then how do you explain that Southerners retained their racism for 100 years after the Civil War but have, as you assert, largely shed it since then? Must be that the Bigfoot of the federal government had something to do with it. I see this as a rock and hard place dilemma: you either have to admit that federal power can change states for the better, or you have to admit that white Southerners are still stubbornly racist. (Personally, I think both propositions are true.) > > I would also invite people to look at the chart on page 38 or 39 of [this PDF](http://chicago.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=210112099027098065023075081065004006006053019011070090014119022123120065006065074098037057101062049011109094030115126095118067106036006035001084107066089009005089087095054032008122084092114109097070069072&EXT=pdf), depending on whether you use the automated page number or the printed one. > > Whether you look at the percentage above the median, the top quartile, or the top decile, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama are all riding the top of the racism chart. (I am now reminded that I have been to New Orleans, though nowhere else in Louisiana, so by some definitions that would also mean I have been to the Deep South; but by the original mid-20th century definition, that is not part of the region so named–presumably because of the Cajun flavour.) > > Let’s be fair though and give credit where it is due: it would appear that the red states in the Mountain West are remarkably non-racist, with the exception of Wyoming. > > BTW, I checked out that Slate link and had to laugh when I saw that the experiment was conducted entirely in California. As if Republican leaning areas of California would be the same as strongly Republican parts of the Deep South. Give me a break. Wow, what a ridiculous reply to what I posted. I responded to your assertion that Southerners are just as racist today as they were then. This response of yours makes absolutely no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/63 "2013-08-29T21:47:54Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Hey, English is a living language and all, but if you’re going to use your own definitions for words, expect to be misunderstood a lot. > > [Southerner](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Southerner?s=t) He’s got quite the no-true Scotsman thing going on. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/64 "2013-08-29T22:40:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > As to your allegation of hypocrisy, I dispute that. I do not deny Republicans the right to say “Democratic Party policies are terrible” or any variant of same. I only ask that they use the correct name for the party. Similarly, I have said that my impression is that the Deep South is not a desirable place to live. And yes: I even said that I have an impression of it being an “ignorant backwater”. But I have not used a name for the region that is not generally understood to be its actual name, in particular a name for the region that its residents pointedly avoid using. I see the very obvious has to be spelled out here. You are objecting to his alleged use of a disparaging term to describe your affiliated political party while at the same time disparaging an entire region of people. And in any event, I find it more likely that the term “Democrat Party” was used innocently, either a typo, ignorance of the historical usage, or incorrect grammatical construction. “Democrat Party” as a slur is not widely known outside of political junkies in recent times IME. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/65 "2013-08-29T23:05:47Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > And in any event, I find it more likely that the term “Democrat Party” was used innocently, either a typo, ignorance of the historical usage, or incorrect grammatical construction. “Democrat Party” as a slur is not widely known outside of political junkies in recent times IME. You don’t see many examples of the Democrat Party being used by liberals. Which isn’t to say there aren’t any, but 90% of the time the user is either using as a slur on purpose (because “democratic” is much easier on the ears than the harsh sounding “democrat”, in addition to the essentialist, attributive qualities, in addition to the fact that that’s not their name), or are so insulated in an echo chamber of conservatives who use the term so use the term themselves reflexively. 10% of people that use it I would agree use it by mistake. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/66 "2013-08-29T23:07:25Z")
I concede the dictionary definition does not support my definition of “Southerner”. But I believe they are being too vague and general; I have started a new thread to deal with this question. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/67 "2013-08-30T05:00:15Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Izzat right? Huh, could have sworn that [Dick Clark](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_C._Clark), [Tom Harkin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Harkin), [John Culver](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Culver), and [Harold Hughes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Hughes) all represented Iowa in the Senate in those two decades. In fact, if my quick calculation is right, of the forty total years of Senate tenure during that period (twenty years times two senators), the tally is 22-18 in favour of Democrats. The governors were Republican, but there were only two of them who each got repeatedly reelected. So maybe you can say it “leaned Red”, but “consistently Red”? No. I assumed you were cutting off at Presidential elections. Yet another reason why the “red” or “blue” designation only really means what the person who is making the claim wants it to mean. So 18 years of Republican Senators, and 20 years of Republican Presidents and Governors vs. 22 years of Democratic Senators. 68 vs 22. Yeah, it was consistently red during the 70’s and the 80’s just as it has been consistently blue since. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/68 "2013-08-30T05:42:00Z")
I honestly didn’t even think of including presidential elections, which is totally my bad–you are right that those should be included. But a “consistently red state” would not elect more Democrats than Republicans to the Senate, not even slightly more. In fact, it would not elect _any_. I believe the crux of the problem here is that the word “consistently” does not mean what you think it means. Webster’s [defines it as follows](http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/consistently): > [@](#): > > \*\*consistently \*\*_adverb_ > on every relevant occasion \ > > Synonyms: aye (also ay), consistently, constantly, continually, ever, forever, incessantly, invariably, night and day, perpetually, unfailingly And BTW, even if we limited it to presidential elections, you would still be wrong. Iowa went in Dukakis’s column in '88. Had you used “more often than not” in place of “consistently”, I think that would be fair. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/69 "2013-08-30T17:16:45Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Are you going to dispute that the average white Southerner in the 1950s was more racist than the average white non-Southerner? If you do dispute that, how do you explain that civil-rights legislation was passed while Southern senators attempted to filibuster it? > > If you don’t dispute it, then how do you explain that Southerners retained their racism for 100 years after the Civil War but have, as you assert, largely shed it since then? Must be that the Bigfoot of the federal government had something to do with it. I see this as a rock and hard place dilemma: you either have to admit that federal power can change states for the better, or you have to admit that white Southerners are still stubbornly racist. (Personally, I think both propositions are true.) > > I would also invite people to look at the chart on page 38 or 39 of [this PDF](http://chicago.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=210112099027098065023075081065004006006053019011070090014119022123120065006065074098037057101062049011109094030115126095118067106036006035001084107066089009005089087095054032008122084092114109097070069072&EXT=pdf), depending on whether you use the automated page number or the printed one. > > Whether you look at the percentage above the median, the top quartile, or the top decile, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama are all riding the top of the racism chart. (I am now reminded that I have been to New Orleans, though nowhere else in Louisiana, so by some definitions that would also mean I have been to the Deep South; but by the original mid-20th century definition, that is not part of the region so named–presumably because of the Cajun flavour.) > > Let’s be fair though and give credit where it is due: it would appear that the red states in the Mountain West are remarkably non-racist, with the exception of Wyoming. > > BTW, I checked out that Slate link and had to laugh when I saw that the experiment was conducted entirely in California. As if Republican leaning areas of California would be the same as strongly Republican parts of the Deep South. Give me a break. Of course the people in the south were more racist. The north was very racist too by today’s standards, but the north and the south have both changed. I know liberals have their own calendars that say 1968 every year but the truth is it is forty five years later and things have changed. I mentioned upthread that people are leaving the northeast and midwest and moving to the south in droves. Black people are even more apt to move to the south than white people are. ([pdf](http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/reports/2004/5/demographics%20frey/20040524_frey)) Black people in the south are more likely to be happy than those who live in the [north](http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic457678.files//Happiness_Race.pdf). [PDF](http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic457678.files//Happiness_Race.pdf) Federal laws definetly had something to do with the change, but the biggest change was one of the heart. Read Stride toward Freedom the civil rights movement was not just for new laws it was an appeal to the conscience of white people to recognize the common humanity of black people. In both ways it was wildly succesful. Other than the liberal obsession with controlling the speech of others can you explain why “Democrat” is perjorative? I am a Republican and belong to the Republican party. Obama is a democrat and belongs to the democrat party. Same exact construction. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/70 "2013-08-30T17:22:21Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Other than the liberal obsession with controlling the speech of others can you explain why “Democrat” is perjorative? Who said anything about controlled speech? Everyone is free to say stupid things, and free to call out others on it. > [@](#): > > I am a Republican and belong to the Republican party. Obama is a democrat and belongs to the democrat party. Same exact construction. This is not correct. There is no such a creature. You are simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/71 "2013-08-30T17:24:27Z")
Democrat is not an adjective, therefore Democrat Party is improper grammar. So you sound uneducated when you use it. Besides, why is it unreasonable for people to expect to be referred to by the official party name. Would you want it called the Republic Party? Its a childish playground insult type of thing. You should want to be above that I would think. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/72 "2013-08-30T18:56:12Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Other than the liberal obsession with controlling the speech of others can you explain why “Democrat” is perjorative? I am a Republican and belong to the Republican party. Obama is a democrat and belongs to the democrat party. Same exact construction. But it is “Republican” that is unusual in being spelled and said the same as a noun and as an adjective. “Democrat” is not an adjective and it sounds ignorant, malicious, or both to use it as such. “The Democratic Party” is also simply what we call our party. We don’t try to call your party something other than what you call it. We even use the GOP initialism even though it stands for a complimentary description of a grand old party. Let’s get real here: what is really at the heart of this is that you guys are sore that the adjective “democratic”, with a small d, has become common in describing something generally considered desirable, while the small r “republican” has faded from common usage in that sense. Waaah. Or maybe we are giving you too much credit and it is just grammatical ignorance. A lot of Republicans are from the South after all. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/73 "2013-08-30T19:01:10Z")
I think puddleglum’s response would indicate that he/she is not using the term as a pejorative. This falls into the category of how people self identify and if the group believes it to be a slur then it would be courteous to respect that. It doesn’t seem far fetched to me for someone to not know the connotation before hand. Yes it’s not an adjective, but only because that is how it is defined. Consider that the same exact construction for other political parties does not follow the same rational Republican = member of Republican Party Libertarian = member of Libertarian Party Whig = member of Whig Party Green doesn’t really work I suppose, that would be: Green Party Member? But once you get to Democrat = member of “Democrat Party” all the sudden someone has been slurred. I accept that since it seems to be the historical case, but I also expect most of the usage of this construction is innocuous. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/74 "2013-08-30T19:02:48Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But it is “Republican” that is unusual in being spelled and said the same as a noun and as an adjective. “Democrat” is not an adjective and it sounds ignorant, malicious, or both to use it as such. Because nouns cannot possibly be used as adjectives. Not allowed. No such thing as “school lunch”. Or “ticket office”. Or “tennis shoes”. And people who use those expressions are, apparently, ignorant, malicious, or both. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/75 "2013-08-30T19:09:09Z")
Some nouns can also be used as adjectives, but not all. Democrat is one of those that cannot be used that way without butchering grammar. People who do that are in fact being ignorant, or if they are aware of it, and they still insist on using it, malicious. Why can’t you just respect the wishes of others. The group you are referring to does not want to be referred to in that way. You know this, yet you still do it. Do you do this with other groups as well? Or just the Democratic Party? Why must you insist to use your own term when the party itself calls itself something else? At the very least it is incredibly disingenuous to act like you can’t possibly understand why anyone could take issue with this when its something you are doing deliberately. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/76 "2013-08-30T19:11:42Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > The group you are referring to does not want to be referred to in that way . They don’t? Has there been a poll? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/77 "2013-08-30T19:11:46Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Some nouns can also be used as adjectives, but not all. Democrat is one of those that cannot be used that way without butchering grammar. Can you cite the grammar rule that would show that “Democrat” cannot be used like that? Or did you just make that up? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/78 "2013-08-30T19:16:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Can you cite the grammar rule that would show that “Democrat” cannot be used like that? Or did you just make that up? Good thing **Airbeck** wasn’t around giving advice to Shakespeare back in the day! ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/79 "2013-08-30T19:24:02Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But it is “Republican” that is unusual in being spelled and said the same as a noun and as an adjective. “Democrat” is not an adjective and it sounds ignorant, malicious, or both to use it as such. “The Democratic Party” is also simply what we call our party. We don’t try to call your party something other than what you call it. We even use the GOP initialism even though it stands for a complimentary description of a grand old party. > > Let’s get real here: what is really at the heart of this is that you guys are sore that the adjective “democratic”, with a small d, has become common in describing something generally considered desirable, while the small r “republican” has faded from common usage in that sense. Waaah. > > Or maybe we are giving you too much credit and it is just grammatical ignorance. A lot of Republicans are from the South after all. 😉 It sounds ignorant and malicious to you, to me it sounds quaint, folksy and happy. As a liberal I know you are most happy when feigning moral outrage but you have not said why it is perjorative. Only that you don’t like it. I bet alot of southerners would not like you calling them ignorant racists and I could even provide reasons why those words are perjorative. We are called the Grand Old Party because a long time ago people from our party fought a war with people from your party and we got that sobriquet as a consequence of our winning that war. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387/80 "2013-08-30T19:34:34Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Some nouns can also be used as adjectives, but not all. Democrat is one of those that cannot be used that way without butchering grammar. People who do that are in fact being ignorant, or if they are aware of it, and they still insist on using it, malicious. What about Bull Moose? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-have-better-schools/667387.md?page=5)