# Blue states smarter than red states? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 20, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-smarter-than-red-states/610127 "2012-01-20T14:04:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![ABraut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@ABraut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ABraut)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-smarter-than-red-states/610127/221 "2012-06-04T21:34:49Z")
I am curious about something. Why do you think government forced racial preferencing is a liberty and what liberties are preserved by hate crime laws that are not preserved by existing anti-violence laws? ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-smarter-than-red-states/610127/222 "2012-06-05T19:40:09Z")
> [@ABraut](#): > > Saying that murder laws infringe on personal liberty is completely ridiculous. Unjustified homicide is the biggest violation of personal liberty possible. Wow. I admit I didn’t expect that. It seems that your refusal to understand my point is actually ironic. Here you are, accusing me of giving a pass to restrictions I agree with, while you not only give a pass to, but actually completely _define away_ a restriction that you agree with. Let me spell it out in terms as painfully clear as possible: Murder laws say (simplified): “You will be punished more if you intentionally kill someone through active effort than if you incidentally kill someone through indirect negligence or carelessness.” Hate crime laws say (simplified): “You will be punished more if you harm someone to demonstrate your scorn of a particular group than if you harm someone for other reasons.” Both laws punish the same act more severely depending on the state of the perpetrator’s mind and the perpetrator’s intent. To the extent that one is a restriction on personal liberty (the liberty of the perpetrator, that is), then the other one is as well. Now, again, you can believe that one is necessary and the other is not, but you can’t seriously claim that laws against murder are not restrictions on personal liberty. Now, once you acknowledge that we all accept certain laws that restrict personal liberty, we can return to my point that some such laws provide a net gain in personal liberty, and others provide a net loss. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![ABraut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@ABraut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ABraut)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-smarter-than-red-states/610127/223 "2012-06-05T21:54:09Z")
No-one has the right to deny others of their personal liberty, except in immediate defense of self or others. Anti-violence/theft/vandalism laws punish _actions_ that deny others of their personal liberties; these laws _protect_ personal liberty. Hate crime laws punish specific thought and/or speech that, alone, do not infringe on anyone’s personal liberty; these laws protect nothing that anti-violence/theft/vandalism laws do not already protect. It’s quite telling that you see protecting someone’s liberty as an infringement on the liberty to infringe on the rights of others. It makes it so much easier to justify infringements on personal liberty that do not protect anyone’s rights, so long as _you_ deem it worthwhile. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-smarter-than-red-states/610127/224 "2012-06-07T11:32:26Z")
MODERATOR INTERJECTION: I haven’t looked at this thread in a while, but it does seem to have got fairly far afield. The column was about intelligence levels, and the specific issues that divide the country (and the political parties) are debated on these boards elsewhere (specifically, the Great Debates forum.) If you want to pursue any of those topics, please do so elsewhere. So, please, back to the column? ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-smarter-than-red-states/610127/225 "2012-06-07T12:40:53Z")
> [@ABraut](#): > > Hate crime laws punish specific thought and/or speech that, alone, do not infringe on anyone’s personal liberty Just one point of order, for the benefit of lurkers, before withdrawing: The above statement is misleading. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![ABraut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@ABraut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ABraut)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-smarter-than-red-states/610127/226 "2012-06-07T14:07:02Z")
Democrats seem to have an elaborate system of self-deception that makes it difficult to take their claims of superior intelligence seriously. At the very least, most of their rhetoric is emotion based. They’ll deny envy politics, in the same breath as they demonize the wealthy. Democrats appear to love substituting equality of outcomes for equal opportunity, rationalization for rational thought, and many other things. It’s no wonder that they characterize this pattern of redefinition and substitution as intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-smarter-than-red-states/610127/227 "2012-06-07T15:10:46Z")
I will concede that red states are smarter than blue states, if only by their cleverness in extracting more federal dollars than they pay in taxes. Getting away with that while simultaneous railing against socialist pork barrel spending takes some serious brain power. ---
**Author:** ![ABraut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@ABraut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ABraut)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-smarter-than-red-states/610127/228 "2012-06-07T18:29:07Z")
Characterizing military and Border Patrol spending as “socialist pork barrel spending” or sometimes “welfare”, is an example of redefinition. If you look into why those states have higher federal spending, you’ll find that many of them have military bases, military suppliers, and/or a strong Border Patrol presence, or at least more of them in relation to their population. Western states have more miles of federal interstate in relation to population, as well. Blue states’ high cost of living further skews this metric. Residents of blue states tend to have higher incomes, even though they have less buying power. Since federal income taxes are not adjusted for cost of living, this increases the taxes that people, with effectively less money, must pay. Unadjusted income averages and poverty rates are some more deceptive measurements that Democrats are proud to believe in and brag about. ---
**Author:** ![Veneriable\_Slacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/838e76/32.png) [@Veneriable\_Slacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Veneriable_Slacks)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-smarter-than-red-states/610127/229 "2012-06-11T16:36:11Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I have always wondered if there was a correlation between abuse as a child, and political leanings as an adult. Never seen any statistics on it though. As I get older, I get less conservative and more radical. As a young teen, I was sexually abuse quite badly, but the wounds were self-inflicted. Not sure if this counts. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-smarter-than-red-states/610127/230 "2012-06-11T16:49:21Z")
You were responsible for your own sexual abuse? I’d love to see you explain _that_ one. [QUOTE=ABraut] Blue states’ high cost of living further skews this metric. Residents of blue states tend to have higher incomes, even though they have less buying power. Since federal income taxes are not adjusted for cost of living, this increases the taxes that people, with effectively less money, must pay. Unadjusted income averages and poverty rates are some more deceptive measurements that Democrats are proud to believe in and brag about. [/QUOTE] What rubbish. State income taxes- which create the high level of services in blue states and the resulting cost of living- are credited against federal income taxes. State sales taxes are not. ---
**Author:** ![ABraut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@ABraut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ABraut)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-smarter-than-red-states/610127/231 "2012-06-11T20:21:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > State income taxes- which create the high level of services in blue states and the resulting cost of living- are credited against federal income taxes. State income taxes are not _credited_ against federal income taxes; they _can_ be **deducted** , _if_ you itemize. Sales tax also can be deducted, _if_ you itemize. > [@](#): > > [State and Local Income Taxes](http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch22.html#en_US_2011_publink1000173147) > > You can **deduct** state and local income taxes. However, you can elect to **deduct** state and local general sales taxes instead of state and local income taxes. See General Sales Taxes, later. > [@](#): > > [General Sales Taxes](http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch22.html#en_US_2011_publink1000259667) > > You can elect to **deduct** state and local general sales taxes, instead of state and local income taxes, as an **itemized deduction** on [Schedule A (Form 1040)](http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040sa.pdf), line 5b. You can use either your actual expenses or the state and local sales tax tables to figure your sales tax **deduction**. [$30,000 salary in Austin, Tx:](http://swz.salary.com/CostOfLivingWizard/LayoutScripts/Coll_Start.aspx) > [@](#): > > The cost of living in San Jose, CA is 58.4% higher than in Austin, TX . Therefore, you would have to earn a salary of $47,514 to maintain your current standard of living. > > Employers in San Jose, CA typically pay 28.7% more than employers in Austin, TX . Therefore, if you take the same type of job in the same type of company in San Jose, CA you are likely to earn $38,603 . > > **↓ $8,910** net change in disposable income Do I really need to explain the difference between a tax credit and a tax deduction, or that the federal income tax on $38,603 is more than the federal income tax on $30,000, even though it’s _worth_ $8,910 less? Self-deception is not intelligence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blue-states-smarter-than-red-states/610127.md?page=11)