# Bluesman **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2004, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643 "2004-04-18T06:13:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/41 "2004-04-19T03:27:25Z")
If **Red Fury** would like a target for his blistering, unreasoning hatered, pick on me by all means. I was taken in hook, line and sinker by Bush and his droogs. I supported the war because I believed that Saddam was developing nukes and I didn’t want the US to make the same mistake it made with North Korea. If you want to hate an American who supported the war, hate me. I was wrong, 100 percent. But still, too late to help now. So lay off **Bluesman** –he is in the military, sacrificing a lot to serve his, and my nation. He doesn’t even post much so he can’t even defend himself–is it far to pillory a man who isn’t fighting back? I’m not in the military and I’m not sacrificing jack shit. I’m exactly the type specimen of stupid, gullible American booboisie that you so clearly despise with a white-hot flame. Direct your bile at me, I can take it. Maybe you can get Hattori Hanzo to make you a sword so you can fly over to our benighted land and start chopping heads. We’ll put on black masks and call ourselves the Crazy 275 Million. Anyone got a flamenco record to put on? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/42 "2004-04-19T03:52:12Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > So lay off **Bluesman** –he is in the military, sacrificing a lot to serve his, and my nation. He doesn’t even post much so he can’t even defend himself–is it far to pillory a man who isn’t fighting back. Yep. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/43 "2004-04-19T03:59:38Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And Iraq was a paradise before the US invasion? Please, comments like that are as uninformed as any DoD press release. I’ll have whatever you’re smoking. Must be really good shit if it makes you think Iraq _today_ is not worse off than it was prior to the invasion. As for the “paradise” label…what’s that about? Writer’s embellishment? Yours I mean. On preview: Just read your second post. Nope, no thanks. You may not remember it, but we did go a few rounds on this already _prior_ to the invasion. Turns out I was right and you were wrong. You have since admitted as much on more than one occasion – this one being the latest example. And yes, I can also see what an admirable friend you can be. So you have at least two good traits that I can gather from what you’ve posted here. Please note that last line, as it’s exactly the same standard I am using to judge **Bluesman** or anyone else here – their **posts**. Period. And in that vein, **Bluesman** remains an arrogant prick and a Bush apologist. Of course, he’s welcome to come in here and prove otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/44 "2004-04-19T04:20:17Z")
PS-I don’t much care for flamenco – or bullfighting for that matter – and the only sword you need worry about is the one you’re bending over for your pal. Besides, what with him being the American Bond, surely he must be quite adept in the arts of self-defense… Not that I was overly impressed with his prior “hissy-fit & split” maneuver. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/45 "2004-04-19T04:24:36Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I’ll have whatever you’re smoking. Must be really good shit if it makes you think Iraq _today_ is not worse off than it was prior to the invasion. And you in turn must be really smoking some great shit if you think that Iraq was better off under SH. Christ, the man randomly tortured and killed tens of thousands of Iraqis just for shits and giggles. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/46 "2004-04-19T04:37:02Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Christ, the man randomly tortured and killed tens of thousands of Iraqis just for shits and giggles. No doubt **Bluesman** fed you that super-duper secret info. Because it’s as big a pile of Bushit as the rest of what he previously said. And no, no need to call me “Christ.” Or Jesus even. I don’t do gardens. Nite nite. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/47 "2004-04-19T04:55:37Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > No doubt **Bluesman** fed you that super-duper secret info. Because it’s as big a pile of Bushit as the rest of what he previously said. > > And no, no need to call me “Christ.” Or Jesus even. > > I don’t do gardens. > > Nite nite. Actually, it was Amnisty International, but undoubtedly they’re too right wing a source for you to consider reliable, after all, SH was just a big growly huggy bear, right? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/48 "2004-04-19T05:10:29Z")
> [@China Guy](#): > > Maybe the Bluesman saw bad data but took it in good faith. Hell, the American electorate did much the same. That’s pretty much it in a nutshell. I saw the intel, every indication that I saw was that we had the goods. He works in intel, I’d imagine that he saw some stuff I didn’t see that said we had the goods. We (being the military we) were all pretty confident that something would be found. That the intel proved to be wrong is not our failure. That we were told that it was the gospel truth was not our failure. The failure was elsewhere, certainly not to be laid at **Bluesman** ’s feet. The only thing he did was relay the gospel as it was told to him. That it was wrong does not mean that he was not acting in good faith. As a result, I find this attack to be rather petty, especially since it’s already been done. He had every reason to believe that he was right. In addition, it was (and obviously still is) a pretty charged topic, on both sides, and as a result he engaged in the same sort of rhetoric as everyone else. I really think that this should be forgiven, forgotten, and done. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/49 "2004-04-19T05:20:54Z")
> [@China Guy](#): > > That said, I would like Bluesman to either clarify those earlier statements or say security prevents him from doing so. Maybe the Bluesman saw bad data but took it in good faith. Hell, the American electorate did much the same. The American electorate certainly did _not_ get bad data. The American electorate got a couple of fuzzy pictures and a mountain of bullshit that confused it into believing Iraq was in some way connected to 9/11. In other words, the American electorate got virtually _no_ date. It got bad _analysis_. I missed the original debate that set all this up, and having caught up on both the original thread and the Pit thread, I have to say: **Bluesman** and the people who sprang into auto-defense mode for him were very, very wrong, but there was way too much vitriol spewed at them- particularly at **Lucretia** , whose defensiveness was pretty understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/50 "2004-04-19T05:22:34Z")
Incidentally, **Airman** , I agree completely with the last four lines of your post. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/51 "2004-04-19T05:37:46Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ll have whatever you’re smoking. Must be really good shit if it makes you think Iraq today is not worse off than it was prior to the invasion. There was a rather well-publicized [independent poll](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/04/middle_east_iraqi_opinion_poll/html/1.stm) conducted not long ago in which the balance of Iraqi citizens disagree with you. Seems to me they’d be the ones to know. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/52 "2004-04-19T05:55:46Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > There was a rather well-publicized [independent poll](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/04/middle_east_iraqi_opinion_poll/html/1.stm) conducted not long ago in which the balance of Iraqi citizens disagree with you. Seems to me they’d be the ones to know. Yeah, like a poll conducted in February has any bearing on what’s happening _now_. Don’t you ever watch the news? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Gomez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d78d45/32.png) [@Gomez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gomez)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/53 "2004-04-19T06:48:37Z")
It’s funny. Even if the poll cited _were_ up to date you’d think the ‘Much Better’ and ‘Somewhat Better’ bars would be far longer than they are. As it is 40% of the populace (give or take) thinks we’re just as evil, if not worse, than Saddam Hussein. I don’t put much stock in the second chart for two reasons (a) they said the same things last april and look how wrong they were on that one and (b) you’d have to be one pessimistic motherfucker to believe things could get much worse. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/54 "2004-04-19T10:19:34Z")
It’s not really just a matter of **Bluesman** being ill-informed (in the earlier threads) and the posters who were challenging him being vindicated, but it is the ATTITUDE of **Bluesman** and his acolytes that needs to be addressed. at least to give some closure here. Y’see, most of the posters in the original threads that precipitated this one were offering their humble opinions and their (perhaps ideologically grounded) beliefs. NOBODY claimed to have incontrovertable ‘evidence’ of anything until **Bluesman** started voiding his bowels and calling-out people for their ignorance. Y’see, HE had the ‘Straight Dope’ on the necessity for military action against Iraq, and only HE was qualified to speak about the issue because the rest of us were just ignorant schleps who were not privy to the wonderful evidence that HE was. Y’see, **Bluesman** (and his disciples) came down on those of us who had reservations about the invasion like a ton of fucking bricks. We lacked the ‘knowledge’ and the patriotism and even the basic human decency to accept **Bluesman’s** (and his disciples) WORD. Y’see, I for one think it is important for **Bluesman** to at least admit that the hateful and vomitable arrogance he displayed towards other posters was out-of-line. It is NOT up to other posters such as **gobear** and **lucretia** to make amends for him. This was his call. This is HIS mess to clean up. Whenever that may be. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/55 "2004-04-19T11:13:57Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > The only thing he did was relay the \*\*gospel \*\* as it was told to him. That it was wrong does not mean that he was not acting in good **faith**. Bolding mine. You are right. \*\*Bluesman \*\* suffered the same problem as many people in the US administration. They BELIEVED. The arguments pre-invasion were based on whether Iraq should be invaded without substantial evidence being provided. The war commenced based on FAITH rather than evidence. Some of us who have academic backgrounds do tend to rely on evidence rather than faith. Bluesman and his defenders saw it as a GOSPEL - they needed to convert the unbelievers. Evidence need not be sought, just the WORD from above. I feel sorry for Bluesman in the same way I feel sorry for religious evangelists. And sad for the damage that they cause to the world. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/56 "2004-04-19T12:05:59Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And Iraq was a paradise before the US invasion? Please, comments like that are as uninformed as any DoD press release. > > True, the Powell speech in the UN and pretty much everything Bush has said are lies, but to be fair, everyone in both parties in the US and most governments in the world believed Saddam was hiding an arsenal. That is just not true. It has been repeated now over and over to justify the war but precicely one of the main argument of those who opposed the war was that tehre was not enough proof that Saddam was such a threat. So please do not take us for idiots without memory. I remember very well what happened little more than a year ago. > [@](#): > > In any event, you want to debate Iraq, go to GD. We’re talking about the difference between refutating the substance of a post and attacking the poster’s character. Stay tuned and you may learn something. Bluesman was a rude and arrogant prick in that thread and he deserves to be called on it. One should never be a rude and arrogant prick but if one chooses to be a rude and arrogant prick one should at least be right because if not, like in this case, one ends up looking like a rude and arrogant prick who is also an idiot who talks without knowing what the heck he is talking about. I also find it unacceptable to use arguments which want to excuse him on account of his job. His job should be irrelevant to the argument. I expect he is doing his job just like I expect everybody else to do their job, and he gets no credit or no blame from me for doing the job he was ordered to do. But if you are going to give him credit like he had any say in deciding the job was to be done, then you will have to accept arguments to the contrary which would make him responsible personally for the illegal aggression of a country and for the immoral killing of thousands of civilians. My position is that the responsibility lies with the government who gave the orders and the troops deserve neither blame nor credit. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/57 "2004-04-19T12:37:26Z")
If **bluesman** had of said something along the lines of “hey guys I can’t tell you anything but from what I see coming across my desk we seem to be in this for the right reasons” he wouldn’t of had a lot of trouble. Instead he insulted people who took him up on his rather strong claims. > [@](#): > > The other part, though…I know I’m right. > > The anti-war protests were conducted with best of intentions (possibly; I remain convinced that some people were there for unworthy reasons, never mind the unworthiness of the cause). But it serves an end that they cannot possibly believe is in the interests of anybody but Saddam. In short, I believe that if you’re against this operation proceeding, you don’t have all the facts, and that invalidates your opinion. > > I have a lot of insight into this, and I DO have the facts. I work this problem every day, and have for over three years. I know what I’m talking about, and when this is all over, the people that are bursting with smug pride over their role in the way-cool, hip, chic and popular anti-war movement will have dam’ little to say for themselves. > > Because it will have been proven to everybody with eyes to see, mind to comprehend and conscience to admit - they were wrong. etc. His supporters then came in and some also claimed knowledge of actual data. They also insulted people > [@](#): > > Bluesman, you words are wasted on these ignorant ingrates Lots of insults going on from both sides. Interesting and fun reading really if you ask me. If **bluesman** is too busy to come back or his partner doesn’t want to ruin his valuable time by telling him about these threads that’s fair enough but until he does come back and fights his corner he should IMO be treated as the incorrect condescending arrogant fuckwit he came across as. He dug his own grave. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/58 "2004-04-19T12:55:25Z")
To those supporting **Bluesman** , and calling for his forgiveness; are you confident in your belief that if WMDs were found he and you would forgive the skeptics? Or would there be more “left-wing trash”-type invectives hurled? I repeat my belief that **Bluesman** was likely not lying, but lied to. But nevertheless, I think he and his supporters should apologize to those they insulted, now that **Bluesman** ’s claims have been all but proven wrong. Not for being wrong, but for not accepting the possibility that they were wrong and the skeptics were right, and insulting those that time has proven correct. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/59 "2004-04-19T13:12:14Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > That is just not true. It has been repeated now over and over to justify the war but precicely one of the main argument of those who opposed the war was that tehre was not enough proof that Saddam was such a threat. So please do not take us for idiots without memory. I remember very well what happened little more than a year ago. Read again–the operative word isn’t knew, it’s "beleived. Hell, even the Dems who opposed the war thought Hussein was hiding weapons > [@](#): > > Former Vermont Governor Howard Dean (D), appearing on “Face the Nation” in September 2002, said, “There’s no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States and to our allies.” In February 2003, during an address at Drake University, Dean said, “I agree with President Bush – he has said that Saddam Hussein is evil. And he is. (Hussein) is a vicious dictator and a documented deceiver. He has invaded his neighbors, used chemical arms and failed to account for all the chemical and biological weapons he had before the Gulf War. He has murdered dissidents and refused to comply with his obligations under U.N. Security Council Resolutions. And he has tried to build a nuclear bomb. Anyone who believes in the importance of limiting the spread of weapons of mass killing, the value of democracy, and the centrality of human rights must agree that Saddam Hussein is a menace. The world would be a better place if he were in a different place other than the seat of power in Baghdad or any other country. So I want to be clear. Saddam Hussein must disarm. This is not a debate; it is a given.” Granted, there was insufficient proof–doesn’t mean that anyone thought at the time that Hussein was unarmed. > [@](#): > > Bluesman was a rude and arrogant prick in that thread and he deserves to be called on it. One should never be a rude and arrogant prick but if one chooses to be a rude and arrogant prick one should at least be right because if not, like in this case, one ends up looking like a rude and arrogant prick who is also an idiot > who talks without knowing what the heck he is talking about. And that post should be included in the OED as an example of unintentional irony. **Sailor** , if you would tone down the emotions and stick to the facts, you’d still make useful points but with more credibility. > [@](#): > > I repeat my belief that Bluesman was likely not lying, but lied to. But nevertheless, I think he and his supporters should apologize to those they insulted, now that Bluesman’s claims have been all but proven wrong. Not for being wrong, but for not accepting the possibility that they were wrong and the skeptics were right, and insulting those that time has proven correct. I’ve already acknowledged that the skeptics were right. What’s pissing me off is that it’s not enough to attack **Bluesman** ’s posts, but you have to go after the man himself. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/60 "2004-04-19T13:25:23Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > What’s pissing me off is that it’s not enough to attack **Bluesman** ’s posts, but you have to go after the man himself. What’s the fucking difference? He’s being pitted for _posting_ like an arrogant asshole, not for being _wrong_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643.md?page=4)