# Bluesman **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2004, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643 "2004-04-18T06:13:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/121 "2004-04-20T01:49:41Z")
**gobear** , done. _::::shakes::::_ Now we need to start working on a solution. To be honest, I don’t know that I can think of one that doesn’t involve a lot more blood shedding. Which in turn makes me _angry_ all over again with this whole clusterfuck. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/122 "2004-04-20T04:19:22Z")
What hasn’t been said before? As **Airman** pointed out, it’s a question of good or bad faith. Our subject was extremely vocal about the _general tenor_ of objective evidence which _supported_ a particular case. Knowing well before the general public, the contents of David Kay’s findings; what would a person of integrity have done given freedom to discuss the _general tenor_ of evidence. I leave this question open. Instead it seems to there was a flameout of the board: - maintaining to be true what the evidence now showed to be otherwise - insulting those who had by honest application of their faculties come close to the truth of the matter - not facing the music, after having _explicitly_ put his integrity on the line - returning to the board in the expectation of, what exactly? So I disagree with **Airman** & **RTFirefly** in their view that this pit is redundant or repetitive. However I agree with their conclusion that enough has been said. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/123 "2004-04-20T08:01:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah, like a poll conducted in February has any bearing on what’s happening now. Don’t you ever watch the news? Yes, of course it does. Do you imagine that the entirety of those Iraqis who answered that they were better off now than a year ago would now answer “no,” merely two months after the poll, and merely a month after it was released? Do you have a similarly independent source more recent than it to judge by, or are you hysterically judging by the subjectively-culled anecdotal evidence you see on the news? I thought so. Even if we have had setbacks in the past half-month or so, big deal. That’s what war is. You push, the enemy finds a sore spot and pushes back. You react and counter-attack. There’s a ceasefire in Fallujah as we speak. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/124 "2004-04-20T12:18:28Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > If you don’t think I “have _any_ right”, then feel free to click the button with the exclamation point. You are the one asserting you have “earned the right” to tell the rest of us what we should and should not discuss and I am telling you that youi have no right, earned or not, to tell me what I can discuss here. When I see “moderator” under your name then I will consider you have that right but, in the meanwhile, you can go take a long walk on a short pier. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/125 "2004-04-20T12:26:39Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Yes, of course it does. Do you imagine that the entirety of those Iraqis who answered that they were better off now than a year ago would now answer “no,” merely two months after the poll, and merely a month after it was released? Do you have a similarly independent source more recent than it to judge by, or are you hysterically judging by the subjectively-culled anecdotal evidence you see on the news? > > I thought so. > > Even if we have had setbacks in the past half-month or so, big deal. That’s what war is. You push, the enemy finds a sore spot and pushes back. You react and counter-attack. There’s a ceasefire in Fallujah as we speak. An interesting post. On the one hand, you will not accept that the survey has been rendered irrelevant by changed circumstance, in the absence of a new poll. On the other hand, you’re willing to suggest that because maybe “the **entirety** of those Iraqis” haven’t changed their minds, therefore the poll results are still valid. You actually _do_ acknowledge that circumstances have changed in the rest of your post. I guess you do get at least _some_ information through either the regular news or through blogs or whatever. In particular, you note that there’s been a “setback”, and you use the word “war” in the present tense. Both of which contrast markedly with your meticulous avoidance of such terms and the promotion of rosy projections only a month ago in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=244290). > [@Ogre](#): > > I defended Bush during the Iraqi Unpleasantness (which is still unpleasant…and I still think we should be there,) > [@Ogre](#): > > WMD’s were secondary, we destroyed the Ba’ath Party, Saddam is gone, and the insurgency will take care of itself. Yay for us and yay for the new Iraqi constitution. Iraq will straighten out under its own elected leadership, and there’s hope that it will become a leader in the Middle East as a Muslim democracy. Lovely. Perhaps you imagine yourself as some rational, scientific observer and commentator on events. I think you’re simply delusional. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/126 "2004-04-20T12:33:50Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Sure, **Yojimbo**. My little leprechaun. > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4696241&postcount=3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4696241&postcount=3) Nope still doesn’t hit the mark. I could think of an equivilent for a lot of other nationalities that my work mates would understand immediately. You can slag off other nationalities using stereotypes without hating them. Big humourless Germans for example. Aussies working in bars as they are bred for bar work and on and on…. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/127 "2004-04-20T14:39:18Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Has anyone a clue _why_ **Bluesman** hasn’t come back to respond? If it was posted, I missed it. Too busy bolstering his facts? [New Reports on U.S. Planting WMDs in Iraq](http://www.aljazeerah.info/20n/New%20Reports%20on%20U.S.%20Planting%20WMDs%20in%20Iraq.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/128 "2004-04-20T15:20:18Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > **Revtim** - I guess I don’t see what we know now about WMDs in Iraq that we didn’t know months ago. If some definitive report, like David Kay’s, had just been released, I could see your point. But we knew back in December that there were no WMDs; the only thing that differs between then and now, AFAICT, is that now we’re really really sure about it, instead of just being really sure. That’s why I feel the December 2003 response was more than sufficient, and this thread is just kicking a guy’s name around after he’s left the room. Perhaps you’re right, maybe it’s beating a dead horse. But until **Bluesman** explains how he was so wrong, or simply apologizes, there’s going to be no sense of closure on this issue. It’s not just wanting to make him eat his words. I think it’s important to try and find out what happened here. I’m hoping that he could explain, at least in very general terms so there’s no security problems, how he was fooled so completely. The more we understand what happened here, the greater chance people won’t be fooled again in similar situations. Maybe his “inside knowledge” will still turn out to be useful, at least for this. It may be a rare and valuable opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/129 "2004-04-20T16:10:49Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Too busy bolstering his facts? > [New Reports on U.S. Planting WMDs in Iraq](http://www.aljazeerah.info/20n/New%20Reports%20on%20U.S.%20Planting%20WMDs%20in%20Iraq.htm) In a thread whose theme is the reliability of a source on WMD, you might think twice about citing Aljazeerah, particularly one annotated as “Published on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 by the Mehr News Agency (Tehran, Iran)”. These are sources that don’t even \* pretend \* to be objective. Actually, one thing that’s conveniently forgotten in all this bickering is that numerous WMD-doubters asserted that even if WMDs did not exist, the administration would be planting convenient evidence all over Iraq, so we would never know the truth. But that’s one thing I haven’t seen happen – the administration has been pretty open about their findings, or lack of any. As long as we’re posting cites of dubious authenticity, what do people think about the [thwarted chemical bombing in Jordan?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3635381.stm) The details are annoyingly vague, but speculation is that the chemicals came from Syria, possibly from stockpiles imported from Iraq. But there’s definitely not enough information to make any conclusions whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/130 "2004-04-20T16:21:54Z")
[QUOTE=Revtim] Perhaps you’re right, maybe it’s beating a dead horse. But until **Bluesman** explains how he was so wrong, or simply apologizes, there’s going to be no sense of closure on this issue. It’s not just wanting to make him eat his words. I think it’s important to try and find out what happened here. I’m hoping that he could explain, at least in very general terms so there’s no security problems, how he was fooled so completely. [QUOTE] I think that’s a decent motivation for raising the question. I still think the manner of raising it is far from the best; there’s really no indication that **Bluesman** is following this forum, no indication that he knows a question’s being addressed to him. Email strikes me as more appropriate for that reason. I’m not sure there’s frequently a sense of ‘closure’ in a debate around here. Threads drop off the front page of the forum when everybody finally gets tired of the argument. I think that’s about as much closure as we can expect. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/131 "2004-04-20T16:29:59Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > You are the one asserting you have “earned the right” to tell the rest of us what we should and should not discuss and I am telling you that youi have no right, earned or not, to tell me what I can discuss here. When I see “moderator” under your name… I guess I might have to start adding a disclaimer to my posts for the hard-of-comprension. Something like, “These are my opinions, no matter how strongly held or expressed. In no way should they be regarded as God-like assertions of right, authority, or whatever.” But this being the Straight Dope Message Board, where the vast majority of posters can distinguish between (on the one hand) a claim of moral right to have a strongly-held opinion be taken seriously, and the right of command (on the other), I think I’ll pass on that disclaimer and continue infuriating patzers who can’t tell the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/132 "2004-04-20T16:39:03Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I think that’s a decent motivation for raising the question. I still think the manner of raising it is far from the best; there’s really no indication that **Bluesman** is following this forum, no indication that he knows a question’s being addressed to him. Email strikes me as more appropriate for that reason. > > I’m not sure there’s frequently a sense of ‘closure’ in a debate around here. Threads drop off the front page of the forum when everybody finally gets tired of the argument. I think that’s about as much closure as we can expect. I agree there will likely be no closure. But I disagree that this should be handled via email; it should be handled on the board or nowhere. People shouldn’t have to worry about being harrassed via email whenever they debate on the board. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/133 "2004-04-20T16:48:23Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > I remember Dominique de Villepin saying many many times that France had not seen any evidence whatsoever to merit a pre-emptive attack. Of all the world leaders who claimed there wasn’t evidence to merit a pre-emptive attack, Jean Chretien ( former PM of Canada) put it most succinctly: > [@](#): > > The prime minister wants UN inspectors to return to Iraq to find evidence of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons. When asked exactly what kind of proof he needs, he put it this way: > > “A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It’s a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it’s because it’s proven.” ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/134 "2004-04-20T17:27:48Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > The Bush regime’s lies are gettting thoroughly exposed here, so if the American electorate returns him to power, we will genuinely deserve the scorn of the world as a nation of yahoos. How can you possibly reconcile the above with this: > [@gobear](#): > > I should say “the war debate in the media.” Here in the Dope it was pretty much the usual anti-military, anti-American rhetoric. For some folks here, the US can do nothing right. If we exert force, we’re tyrants; if we do nothing, we’re asleep on the watch. Two posts in a row that aren’t even in agreement. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/135 "2004-04-20T17:40:27Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > In a thread whose theme is the reliability of a source on WMD, you might think twice about citing Aljazeerah, particularly one annotated as “Published on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 by the Mehr News Agency (Tehran, Iran)”. These are sources that don’t even \* pretend \* to be objective. So who’s got the better track record with facts on the ground, the guys claiming objective truths, or the “biased” muckrakers? By being so miserably wrong, and failing to explain the reasons they were so miserably wrong, those who claimed that they _knew_ Saddam had WMD’s are legitimizing these other sources of news. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/136 "2004-04-20T18:19:42Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Two posts in a row that aren’t even in agreement. Nonsense. I excoriate know-nothing, knee-jerk, anti-American sentiment one finds in the far left that always condemns any action by the US military or government reflexively. However, if we in America return Bush to office, then the left and other detractors will be able to feel fully justified in their contempt for the stupidity of the American middle. They do not contracdict each other. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/137 "2004-04-20T18:52:18Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > So who’s got the better track record with facts on the ground, the guys claiming objective truths, or the “biased” muckrakers? By being so miserably wrong, and failing to explain the reasons they were so miserably wrong, those who claimed that they _knew_ Saddam had WMD’s are legitimizing these other sources of news. [Judge for yourself.](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38042) ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643/138 "2004-04-20T19:29:03Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Nonsense. I excoriate know-nothing, knee-jerk, anti-American sentiment one finds in the far left that always condemns any action by the US military or government reflexively. However, if we in America return Bush to office, then the left and other detractors will be able to feel fully justified in their contempt for the stupidity of the American middle. > > They do not contracdict each other. So, if the American people, now armed with the facts elect GWB again, they’re fools. Fools for believing all the bullshit. Meanwhile, **Bluesman** , one of the people who pushed that bullshit (and venomously defended said bullshit when people didn’t believe it out of hand) deserves no abuse? He heaped it onto people for disagreeing with him. Would you really like to see a list of example quotes? Is it really necessary? To re-aim your own words, peope are “excoriating a know-it-all, knee-jerk, America is omniscient sentiment one finds in the far right that codones any action by the US military or government reflexively.” Personally, I agree with you that **sailor** is probably the most anti-American American on this board, and one of the most overall (ignoring such wastes of skin such as **Aldebaran** and **Henry B** ) on the SDMB. His continuing mantra of “America bad” wears on my nerves, too. That doesn’t change the fact that **Bluesman** was wrong. Flamingly, assholingly, raging-prickingly wrong. He argued from authority claiming that **he** was the authority. Do you know another poster that does that? I’ll give you a hint - it’s even in his sig. People disagreed with his posts and got attacked. He wasn’t insulting their positions, but _them_. But now, because you’ve met the guy, it’s wrong for people to insult him? Sorry, homey, it doesn’t work like that. He’s the one who made it personal with the attacks. I’m guessing this thread has come up now because **Bluesman** has now registered as a Charter Member. That means he’s back, and has at least bothered to pay his money to participate in the board. Besides that, it’s been almost a year. In case you don’t remember the progression, we started out with “We need to get into Iraq to grab those WMDs”, progressed through “Iraq is a big country, but we’re certain there’s WMDs”, and finally ended up with, “We’re certain that we’ll find some WMD-related program-like activities.” The short version of that is: Time’s up. Speaking of which, I don’t believe **sailor** ever answered my Iraqi Children/GWB hypothetical… -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bluesman/240643.md?page=6)