You are making stuff up. This doesn’t help your case.
The video hasn’t been available for quite some time. Why don’t you post a link so people can make up their own minds?
That is the all purpose anti-Semitic slur for all Jews who have the chutzpah to have a very different point of view from the Jews you see eye to eye with. It evokes the negative emotion of hate, the disapproval of self-centered narcissism and still manages to make the commonality of jewishness sound like an insult. And it implies that Jews should be hating somebody.
God forbid that somebody should document drunken ugly Americans acting with as little class as Mel Gibson. Didn’t these filmmakers get the memo about only showing American Jews in a good light? They don’t have the right to try to expose less than perfection. They don’t. We are entirely right to flame them here for it. Excellent and proper use of free speech!
Cite?
Seems pretty clear that was, in general, their methodology. It’s a guess at how, exactly, they went about rigging their findings, but it’s clear that they rigged them one way or another.
We wouldn’t be having this discussion if the video under analysis was a Jaywalking video from Leno. Or Girls Gone Wild, or what have you.
And that is a statement that’s full of shit.
Judaism and Jews have all sorts of political and philosophical divergences.
But when a Jew goes out of his way to craft a bit of slimy propaganda designed to ‘prove’ that Israelis and American Jews are really racists who hate blacks (keeping in mind that he, himself, is a Jew), then yeah, the term “self hating” is correct. Unless, of course, it’s simply the kind of insanity we get from some posters here who’ll tell you “Americans are evil, stupid, and eat babies!” and when it’s pointed out that they, too, are an American they’ll just reply “Yah, well, all other Americans. I’m smarter and better than them because I recognize how awful they all are.”
And no, there’s nothing “anti-Semitic” :rolleyes: about noting that someone is a self-hating Jew. And you haven’t and can’t explain why pointing out that someone is a self hating Jew is somehow a slur against Jews or Judaism in general. It’s a comment on one, specific, person. It’s as if someone pointed out a black person who hated being black, and you said that very observation was “racist”.
This is pretty much word salad (“disapproval of self-centered narcissism”???).
It’s also absurd. Nowhere in the phrase “self-hating Jew” is there an implication that Jews are supposed to hate anybody. That’s just loopy. There is the rather clear suggestion that the Jew in question hates something, and that something is A) being a Jew himself or B) Judaism/Jews in general. It says nothing about the “commonality” of anything, other than that if he’s a Jew and he hates Jews, then he’s a self-hating Jew.
Yeah, the things we can learn if we cherrypick aggressively enough and then package the deliberately distorted narrative in order to back an untenable political/social point.
Nah, our control of the media only goes so far. :smack:
The objection is that rather than showing an accurate representation of Jews, as through a scientifically valid random selection asked proper interview questions, it was designed, specifically, to get a certain result. That’s wrong (and for exactly the same reasons) and going out of your way to only interview Jews who’ve saved kittens from burning houses and using them to define “American Judaism”.
Congratulations at aggressively dodging the entire point of the thread, complete with some bizarre ranting about how anybody is demanding that Jews be portrayed as “perfect” by the media.
So you say you cannot criticize any group you are a memer of?
BTW Your name is appropriate because your posts make as much sense as Finnegans Wake 
It is a term used almost exclusively by Jews themselves, for people such as this producer. It is *not *an ethnic slur commonly used by non-Jews such as, oh, myself for one, as you seem to be attempting to claim. The fact that the term is widely used enough to be recognized suggests, though, that something like it actually does exist. The video in question is evidence as well.
Nonsense. It *disparages *those who think so.
“Self-hating Jew” is an anti-Semitic ad hominem attack used to discredit people with whom the using party, also usually Jewish, disagrees. That doesn’t change the fact that it is an ugly and despicable anti-Semitic attack that attacks someone on the basis of their faith because they do not believe the same way as the insulter.
This argument is just *stupid. *
You were reduced to inventing absurdities (“calling someone a self-hating Jew means that you’re saying Jews are supposed to hate people all the time!!!”) in order to defend this laughable claim that pointing out that while some Jews hate being Jews and hate Judaism and Jewishness, that pointing it out is somehow “anti-Semitic”.
That you want to make it out to be some sort of Jewish attack on people with “different opinions” just takes this further through the looking glass.
Again, try being rational about this.
“I think we should have services in English, not Hebrew” = nobody calls them self-hating.
“Jews are evil and treacherous and American Jews in particular are racists who must be stopped.” = self hating.
This is not quantum mechanics we’re dealing with here.
Nonetheless, calling someone a self-hating Jew as a response to what they say is an ad hominem attack and is despicable. Anyone who does it is behaving despicably. If you think that a Jewish person has psychological issues of self loathing, perhaps you should try to get them psychological help. But when it is used as a disparagement of a person to discredit them and win an argument, it is an anti-Semitic comment. I am not saying that people who use that comment are anti-Semites, but I am saying that they are playing right into the hands of real anti-Semitism by not responding to arguments with facts and reasoning instead of ad hominems.
If you’re talking about an “ad hominem attack” as just a way of saying “personal insult” then I suppose. If you’re alleging that it’s an example of the ad hominem fallacy then you’re clearly wrong. Even if you are using it to mean “personal insult”, there’s absolutely no reason that a Jew who is vocal about hating Jews/Judaism can’t, correctly, be identified as hating his Jewish identity.
It’s nice that you’re so concerned about treatment of Jews, but when the vast majority of Jews don’t see the phrase as offensive to Jews in general, in the least little bit, you’re probably doing your best to fight, on the behalf of Jews, against something that Jews consider non-offensive.
If you’d like to start a Pit thread, that’d probably be a better place to talk about such “despicable” behavior. It’s a silly argument to make, but at least as long as you’re accusing people of being despicable in their behavior, the Pit seems like the right place to do it.
Of course, when you’re faced with bastards like Bobby Fischer, who:
A) are Jews
B) hate and rant at Jews, Judaism and Jewishness
It’s perfectly reasonable (and correct) to point out that they’re Jews, that they’re anti-Semites, and that they hate their own Jewishness. Thus, self-hating Jews.
Nah, I don’t think I should.
You’ are, at best, using a highly idiosyncratic definition of “anti-Semitic” (and still haven’t addressed the many reasons your previous support for that claim was wrong). Saying, for instance, that one should not take Fischer’s deranged rantings about the evil of Jews seriously because he’s just a wacked out self-hating Jew says absolutely nothing, at all, (no, not even a little bit) about Jews in general, Judaism, or Jewishness. In short, it cannot even reasonably be said to be approaching anti-semitism.
So you are claiming that it’s an ad hom fallacy?
I’d also point out that ad hom doesn’t always have to be a fallacy. “Don’t trust anything Tim says without verification, he’s a pathological liar.” isn’t an ad hom fallacy if Tim really is a pathological liar. Also “Tim is wrong on claim X because of thus and such, oh, and he’s also an asshole” is not an ad hom fallacy either. In this thread, it’s been shown why Blumenthal is both wrong and a schmuck.
So now we are talking about Bobby Fisher? I’m not. I’m denouncing the casually tossed about phrase “self-hating Jew” as being used in a fashion that degrades Jews who disagree in particular and all Jews in general. You and the OP seem to think that it is okay. I do not. It is insulting, denigrating, dismissive and ad hominem. You approve of the use of this insult for your purposes. It makes the world a worse place.
You just do not talk about people and their faith that way. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343539&page=3 Is a thread where you condemn name calling when it is convenient to you. Shoe’s on the other foot.
Oh, and this one is particularly rich:
From this thread. I Pit anti-Obama racists - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board
Here’s more. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11289127 You seem to have a personal interest in matters Israeli.
No, we’re talking about self-hating Jews, of which Bobby Fischer serves as an excellent bright line example.
As I’ve explained, numerous times, it has zero to do with “Jews in general” and is almost always used for matters of grave importance, not simple “disagreement”. Why you keep repeating both of those is a mystery to me.
Your argument as to why it’s hypocritical to call Jews who hate Judaism and Jewishness “self-hating”… is because I objected to being called a traitor after a rigorous, cite laden analysis of US treatment of prisoners I presented allowed me to conclude that dozens had been tortured to death?
Kay.
Just found the search function or something, didja?
I’m not even going to ask what you think you’re proving with that (nor will I respond to such claims in GD, especially with a perfectly serviceable Pit thread open to discuss them). I will note that if you’d like to discuss the subject of this thread, in this thread, you probably should.
Also, if you’d like to discuss the topic of that Pit thread, you should probably do it in that Pit thread.
In that apparently you don’t understand it, I suppose.
Do tell how the fallacies of Composition and Division have a thing to do with saying that a Jew who hates Judaism and Jewishness is self-hating.
Do you really not understand why the FoC and the FoD have nothing, at all, to do with saying that a Jew who hates Judaism is self-hating, or that a black man who hates blacks is self-hating, or that a magical wombat who hates magical wombat is a self-hating wombat?
So, you’ve pretty much given up trying to argue your position (let alone address my refutations of my claims) and you’re going to be posting random links to my posts that have nothing, at all, to do with this thread?
Yes, and you are calling people traitors to Judaism. It would take a exceptional aptitude for obtuseness to misunderstand the link. These filmmakers are not Bobby Fisher simply because they show ugly-American behavior. Americans all the time properly talk about ugly-American behavior and we don’t mind foreigners talking about it. We don’t call these people self-hating Americans or traitors. Face it, you’ve been hoist by the search features of Google. Your argument is complete inconsistent. I believe that the correct term for that behavior is hypocrisy. Unless done in the interests of discrediting those who want Israel to follow the principles of law and equality.
I disagree. I’ve followed the rules of this forum.
Oh, dear. Kindly allow me to introduce you to the word and concept of: scenario
Now, an SAT question: Under what circumstances would putting forth a “scenario” that is logically compatible with all the known facts be logically sound, valid, appropriate, and ethically justified, while referring to such a “scenario” as “making stuff up” not qualify for any of those adjectives? Please fill in the circle that represents the best answer with a number 2 pencil (you can clean your monitor later):
O: When one has complete, correct knowledge of exactly what has transpired.
O: When one does not have complete, perfect knowledge of exactly what transpired, but has constructed a scenario which is logically compatible with all of the available facts, knowledge, and evidence.Choose wisely.
That’s an excellent suggestion, which is why I did exactly that in the first two posts of this thread. Surely I cannot be held accountable for the fact that no known web site still wants to be associated with that blatantly obvious example of vicious, hate-fueled, anti-Semitic propaganda. Why is it my responsibility to persuade The Huffington Post and YouTube and all the other sites to re-post the video?
But but but!
He’s a Jew, and an American Jew.
Surely it’s okay for an American Jew to cherrypick a non-representative sample of drunken kids and use them to argue what American Jews, therefore the “Zionist Program” and therefore Israelis as a group actually think. I mean, if an American Jew can’t craft deceptive tripe designed to paint American Jews as bad, who *can? *
Sacha Baron Cohen. Except he is not American and mocks Jews in general, not necessarily American Jews.