# BMW driver crashes going 130 - Claims pedal stuck & brakes overpowered - Plausible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 11, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980 "2006-03-11T22:52:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/41 "2006-03-12T23:15:11Z")
OK, as we’re talking about non-American automatics, I’ve checked, and I can turn my Nissan ignition to lock irrespective of the position of the transmission. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/42 "2006-03-12T23:31:23Z")
Not defending the guy necessarily, **Rick** , but the disparity between the accounts of his experiences could have more to do with the unscrupulous reporters employed by British newspapers, than him actually having said anything inconsistent. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/43 "2006-03-12T23:47:43Z")
“He says that he couldn’t turn off the ignition because he’d lose power steering and that would be unsafe?!?” For what its worth this reads to me as someone who possilby knew too much rather than too little. I wouldnt have even considered the possibility of steering locking being a serious concern. This might be a situation where being a truck driver might have counted against him as I imagine losing steering on them is a whole bunch of trouble so he possibly overestimated the risk of doing so as a result. Id also say panic was in there somewhere but find it a wee bit heartless to call him a putz. Tunnel vision is a pretty big part of panic, once you’ve made those cognitive errors early on it can be really hard to get calm enough to realise they are errors and undo them again. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Kiwi\_Fruit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiwi_fruit/32/12_2.png) [@Kiwi\_Fruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiwi_Fruit)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/44 "2006-03-12T23:54:51Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > OK, as we’re talking about non-American automatics, I’ve checked, and I can turn my Nissan ignition to lock irrespective of the position of the transmission. And I can turn the key in my Subaru Outback to lock too, but it doesn’t actually engage the steering lock until I remove the key. KF ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/45 "2006-03-13T02:05:01Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > SNIP > I stand behind all I said about boiling brake fluid and all that, but something’s fishy about this story. I wonder if anyone did a post-mortem inspection of the car to see if they could find the problem with the throttle. Would British cops routinely do this to verify the driver’s story? (Would American cops?) > SNIP In the case of “Hyundai’s accelerator stuck, causing me to drive at 115 until I ran out of gas” in a given southern state, I believe the state highway patrol confiscated the vehicle and had a mechanic tear it down. ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/46 "2006-03-13T06:40:22Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > **Use the brakes stupid** Now if you read carefully you can find out the root cause of this guy being unable to stop I think I see the problem. He did not apply the brakes hard enough. Look if you are trying to overcome the inertia of your car + 138 Horsepower you car going to have push for all that you are worth on that brake pedal. It will not be easy, but it can be done. The brakes (Particularly BMW brakes) are plenty powerful enough The telling phrase is keep my speed down to. If he had jammed the brakes all the way he would have continued to slow down, not just maintained speed. For you American dopers, did you see the comments in the news reports about MOT? In England cars have to have a complete inspection every year, so it is not like the states where you can drive a beater for years and years with nobody looking at it. I think the default assumption should be that the brakes were in serviceable condition. Also keep in mind that the brake booster doesn’t work when the throttle is stuck open. You can use the residual vacuum but if you release and re-apply the brake a couple of times, the pedal will become rock hard. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/47 "2006-03-13T06:42:47Z")
Agreed, but if he had just nailed the brakes and stayed on them till the car stopped we would not be having this thread. Even with no vacuum in the booster, the car would stop if enough force were applied to the brake pedal. ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/48 "2006-03-13T07:49:48Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Even with no vacuum in the booster, the car would stop if enough force were applied to the brake pedal. That was true for your 20 year old beater with the tiny disk brakes at the front and drum brakes at the rear. But try doing the same on a modern car with 300mm disks at the front and 280mm at the rear and you would be surprised. You can apply enough force to snap the brake pedal in two, and yet the car won’t stop. If the brake booster fails, the only way to stop the car is by a combination of downshifting and applying the e-brake. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/49 "2006-03-13T17:47:34Z")
Sounds to me like the guy was trying to save his car. Didn’t break hard, but only down to a ‘safe’ 70. Repeated breaking a few times till breaks failed. Didn’t go into neutral as the car kept red-lining (doh!), well he mustn’t damage the engine now must he. Didn’t switch off engine (doh x2 !). Still impressed with the safety of the 318i since he survived the crash and roll. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/50 "2006-03-13T20:46:08Z")
> [@Dog80](#): > > That was true for your 20 year old beater with the tiny disk brakes at the front and drum brakes at the rear. But try doing the same on a modern car with 300mm disks at the front and 280mm at the rear and you would be surprised. You can apply enough force to snap the brake pedal in two, and yet the car won’t stop. > > If the brake booster fails, the only way to stop the car is by a combination of downshifting and applying the e-brake. There is just no way this is true. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/51 "2006-03-13T20:59:21Z")
> [@Dag Otto](#): > > There is just no way this is true. Two examples. I drive two cars, an aging Volvo and a new Mercedes. The aging Volvo is almost impossible to drive if the engine is off. I am a big strong person and find the steering difficult with no power steering and the brakes almost ineffective without the engine running normally. Secondly, the new Mercedes has ABS and this am I tried to drive it up a slippery snowy road. The ABS was so effective it stopped me from raising the revs and slipping the clutch to gain traction- the computer just would not let me climb the slope. The rear wheel drive old fashioned computerless Volvo climbed the slope with no problem. Moral- lack of power steering and breaks can casue real problems. Computers can refuse to respond to reasonable commands in unpredictable ways. I would remind people that the Car manufacturers and the general public were sceptical, dismissive and insulting about cars suddenly leaping forward without driver assistance, until the manufacturers eventually admitted there was an error with the on-board computer and recalled several makes and models of vehicles. I vote for wait and see on this whole story. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/52 "2006-03-13T21:50:49Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Secondly, the new Mercedes has ABS and this am I tried to drive it up a slippery snowy road. The ABS was so effective it stopped me from raising the revs and slipping the clutch to gain traction- the computer just would not let me climb the slope. The rear wheel drive old fashioned computerless Volvo climbed the slope with no problem. Are you sure you mean ABS (Anti-lock Braking System), if so how does that effect revs and traction? > [@](#): > > I would remind people that the Car manufacturers and the general public were sceptical, dismissive and insulting about cars suddenly leaping forward without driver assistance, until the manufacturers eventually admitted there was an error with the on-board computer and recalled several makes and models of vehicles. Could you link to this story/old-news, I missed it and it sounds interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/53 "2006-03-13T22:48:28Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Two examples. I drive two cars, an aging Volvo and a new Mercedes. > > The aging Volvo is almost impossible to drive if the engine is off. I am a big strong person and find the steering difficult with no power steering and the brakes almost ineffective without the engine running normally. You are trying to steer the car at a very slow speed (probably while being pushed) This is when steering boost is the greatest. On modern power steering systems boost is reduced as speed increases. Driving a car at speed with no power steering is fairly easy. Parking the car w/o power steering is a bitch. > [@](#): > > Secondly, the new Mercedes has ABS and this am I tried to drive it up a slippery snowy road. The ABS was so effective it stopped me from raising the revs and slipping the clutch to gain traction- the computer just would not let me climb the slope. The rear wheel drive old fashioned computerless Volvo climbed the slope with no problem. You are describing the computerized traction control NOT ABS. Anyway what is your point? > [@](#): > > Moral- lack of power steering and breaks can casue real problems. Computers can refuse to respond to reasonable commands in unpredictable ways. Brakes car have Brakes. Break is what happens when your brakes don’t work. > [@](#): > > I would remind people that the Car manufacturers and the general public were sceptical, dismissive and insulting about cars suddenly leaping forward without driver assistance, until the manufacturers eventually admitted there was an error with the on-board computer and recalled several makes and models of vehicles. Find me one case of a car maker recalling a computer to fix an untended acceleration problem. Cite please. You are about 100% wrong here. The root cause of vast majority of unintended acceleration incidents was pedal misapplication by the driver. Three data points to consider: 1. Stick shift cars never had an UA problem. Why not? Same engine, same car. Simple, driving a stick you are more aware of what your feet are doing. 2. When car makers started equipping their cars with shift lock solenoids which require the brake pedal to be depressed before the shift can be moved out of Park, UA complaints dropped to zero. Gee I wonder why? 3. It was found that Audi, which caught most of the UA shit thanks to 60 Minutes, had an overwhelming majority of their UA complaints from new Audi owners. New owners that traded in their large American car. Why? The pedal spacing is different on the Audi than it is on an American car. Audi’s pedal spacing is European similar to Volvo and Mercedes. For the most part long time Audi drivers did not have a UA problem only the newbies. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/54 "2006-03-13T22:49:15Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > Are you sure you mean ABS (Anti-lock Braking System), if so how does that effect revs and traction? > > SNIP He HAS to be talking about the car’s traction control system. My understanding is that in cars that have both they use the same actual hardware, so while he is mis-speaking, it does make some sense. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/55 "2006-03-14T00:55:50Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > The pedal spacing is different on the Audi than it is on an American car. Audi’s pedal spacing is European similar to Volvo and Mercedes. I’ve driven a '72 Mercedes a few times a long time ago. And owned a VW (manual [Sciracco, I think it was a '79]) How different is the pedal spacing? ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/56 "2006-03-14T01:28:52Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I’ve driven a '72 Mercedes a few times a long time ago. And owned a VW (manual [Sciracco, I think it was a '79]) How different is the pedal spacing? Brake and accelerator tend to be closer together in Euro cars, and accelerator tends to be smaller than in American cars. It is often easier to heal-toe in a european model, but also easier to hit both the brake and accelerator at the same time in a panick. Or at least this is what I have read in Automobile-Insanity forum of something-awful, and agrees with my limited experience of such vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/57 "2006-03-14T03:29:43Z")
Car and Driver magazine did a report on Audis and unintended acceleration years ago. The brake pedals in the Audis were farther to the right than in any other cars they measured, which explained why there were more case of UI in Audis than in other makes. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/58 "2006-04-30T00:45:38Z")
> [@DarrenS](#): > > How about an “ask the high performance driving instructor” thread? I for one would find it most interesting. First on my list would be, how should one drive differently in a rear-wheel drive car than a front-wheel drive? > > (apologies for the slight hijack) Thanks for the suggestion. [Here you go.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7347234#post7347234) ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/59 "2006-06-19T14:44:14Z")
Just an update on this story. The guy has been arrested for dangerous driving. Story [here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/5094840.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980/60 "2006-06-19T19:47:26Z")
[Nelson Muntz]AH-HA![/NM] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bmw-driver-crashes-going-130-claims-pedal-stuck-brakes-overpowered-plausible/347980.md?page=4)