# BoA CEO "Incensed" About Public Hostility **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 26, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896 "2011-10-26T19:45:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/101 "2011-10-27T21:07:44Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > If they suddenly decided to hit up all current owners of Apple iphones with a $5 a month service fee under the guise that they aren’t making enough profit on app transactions I’d call them greedy bastards and switch to an android phone. This is such a bizarre analogy I don’t even know what to say about it. > [@](#): > > I have no problem with BofA charging a fee or raising fees on new accounts where the consumer is at the decision making point. They gave several months notice that this would be happening, what more do you want? Do you think they should be prohibited from charging new fees to existing customers, forever? > [@](#): > > From Page 3 of the linked 2010 Annual Report > 2010 Total Net Revenue $111 billion > > I can not feel sorry for them. Do you not understand the difference between revenue and income? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/102 "2011-10-27T21:21:33Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Well, I have not looked at their quarterly report in detail, but you can look this up for yourself in their [2010 annual report](http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/71/71595/reports/2010_AR.pdf). > > On page 23, they have a chart that shows their major lines of business, and their profit/loss from each one. Page 24 describes those lines of business. > > In 2010, they: > [ul] > [li] made $1.4 billion from deposits, meaning ordinary banking products (savings accounts, CDs, etc.)[/li][li] LOST $6.6 billion in their credit card division[/li][li] LOST $8.9 billion in their retail home loan and insurance division[/li][li] made $3.2 billion from their “global commercial banking” division[/li][li] made $6.3 billion from their “global banking and markets” division[/li][li] made $1.3 billion from their “global wealth and investment management” division[/li][li] made $1.1 billion from other stuff[/li][/ul] From that same page, net profit is positive across the board. If I am understanding at all the credit loss allowance calculation on page 111, the negative net income numbers “…represents management’s **estimate** of probable losses inherent in the Corporation’s loan portfolio excluding those loans accounted for under the fair value option.” (bolding mine) In other words, those income losses may or may not actually have occurred. Additionally, those are income losses on investments and not losses due to operating expenses. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/103 "2011-10-27T21:46:28Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > They gave several months notice that this would be happening, what more do you want? Do you think they should be prohibited from charging new fees to existing customers, forever? > Do you not understand the difference between revenue and income? Pretty obvious that I do have my revenue and income flip flopped. :o To answer the previous question, I don’t want any more from them. I don’t want anything from BofA, in fact I do very little business with BofA and intend to keep it that way. I do not believe they should be prohibited to charging new fees for new services or increasing fees as operating costs increase. I am not subject to this fee in the account I do have that is under BofA control. I do want the apologists to shut the hell up. The Durbin Amendment was added because the lawmakers agreed the large banks were gouging business on the transaction fees. Shifting the burden onto the account holder doesn’t change that. If you want to pretend this is some kind of anti-profit / anti business tactic believe what you want. In my opinion it is little different than than the government hiking the cigarette tax. The majority of the burden falls on those who can least afford it. As evidenced by this thread, those with significant investments or deposits with BofA are saying they will not be subject to the fee. I’ll bow out now. This is just going to devolve into a debate centered on my understanding of a balance sheet, a debate I have no illusions of winning. Nor one that I think matters a wit in this. BofA is perfectly within their rights to assign this fee. Doesn’t mean anyone has to applaud them for it. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/104 "2011-10-27T21:54:09Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > I’ll bow out now. This is just going to devolve into a debate centered on my understanding of a balance sheet, a debate I have no illusions of winning. Probably not, since the debate is over income statements and not balance sheets. 😛 😉 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/105 "2011-10-27T22:05:09Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > If they suddenly decided to hit up all current owners of Apple iphones with a $5 a month service fee under the guise that they aren’t making enough profit on app transactions I’d call them greedy bastards and switch to an android phone. Bad analogy. The legislation came first. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/106 "2011-10-27T22:08:50Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Probably not, since the debate is over income statements and not balance sheets. 😛 > > 😉 I rest my case. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/107 "2011-10-27T22:14:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Bad analogy. The legislation came first. Honestly I don’t follow. For the sake of argument, let’s assume the HBNS act cuts the app transaction fees Apple can charge by 50%. (I know, not a perfect analogy, it is a product… but being software it is closer to a service than say groceries would be.) Would everyone that owns an iphone be perfectly satisfied if a $5 a month service fee were introduced because of this? Perhaps you think so. I do not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/108 "2011-10-27T22:17:10Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Honestly I don’t follow. I thought you were bowing out. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/109 "2011-10-27T22:26:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I thought you were bowing out. 😃 Haven’t I made it perfectly clear that I’m not too smart? 😛 Anything to do with banking and investments right now is awfully emotional for people. More so than usual even. Stepping back and taking another look at it, I think I should be more pissed at the lawmakers for protecting one group and leaving the average Joe exposed. Just more of the same half thought out financial legislation that has dogged us for years. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/110 "2011-10-27T22:45:10Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > They gave several months notice that this would be happening, what more do you want? It might be nice if the CEO of a company with 100+Billion dollars of annual revenue could refrain from whining like a 5 year old when his customers complain about his new fee structure. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/111 "2011-10-27T23:21:47Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Then they’re analogous to notifying your boss that there will be a surcharge on your services for every month that you have to open your own office door even once. But once you apply the surcharge the first time, you’ll open your own door for the rest of the month without further surcharges. If I was the boss, I would simply conclude the employee wants a raise. He’d either be worth it or not. I don’t give a damn what silly cover story he chooses to use. In the end, either he’s a service worth paying for or not. Same with banks and fees. People get so hung up on the details of what the fee is called or precisely the point at which it accrues. How would you structure it? Is there some monumentally fairer way? > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I don’t either, I think he believes that his company is morally entitled to a profit. As in, if he chooses to raise prices for his customers, in an effort to ensure that his shareholders get an “appropriate” return for their investment, those customers shouldn’t complain. They should simply crack open their wallets with a smile, secure in the notion that they are supporting the good works of BofA. Isn’t it fun to demonise those we don’t like and pretend they have some sort of twisted moral code so we can get angry at the attributes we made up and pinned on them? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/112 "2011-10-28T00:23:19Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Isn’t it fun to demonise those we don’t like and pretend they have some sort of twisted moral code so we can get angry at the attributes we made up and pinned on them? I’m not angry at him, I’m laughing at him. He’s a fucking clown. “We have a right to make a profit”??? That’s shit a crappy one man operation says to the latest customer he managed to piss off. Instead of getting incensed at your unhappy customers, maybe you should think about what you could be doing better. Maybe cut back on the number of foreclosures you initiate against homeowners who don’t have mortgages with you. Baby steps. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/113 "2011-10-28T00:58:58Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > “We have a right to make a profit”??? That’s shit a crappy one man operation says to the latest customer he managed to piss off. I think he is responding to the various people who seem to think that any business that ends a year with more than they started with has committed some heinous crime against mankind, and that he left off the “try”. If you want to complain about this kind of entitled thinking, complain about the people who feel they have a “right” to free healthcare even if they can’t produce enough value to pay for insurance themselves. > [@](#): > > Instead of getting incensed at your unhappy customers, maybe you should think about what you could be doing better. Maybe cut back on the number of foreclosures you initiate against homeowners who don’t have mortgages with you. Baby steps. Occasional mistakes like that, even though they get reported with glee on the Huffington Post, have fuck all to do with the actual profitability of the company. It’s not like they have some kind of organized plan to do that - it’s a huge organization, inevitably it will make some mistakes, and trying to assign any significance to those mistakes only shows that you care more about promoting your agenda than actually looking at the situation objectively. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/114 "2011-10-28T01:38:22Z")
BoA one of those banks that “was too big to fail”. It survived because it held the country economically hostage for a gigantic 11 figure loan. It ended up needing this loan because people like it’s cry baby of a CEO. Took huge brianlessly fucking stupid risks in the name of profit. How many people did Bank of America put out of work? Now they want to cry because people don’t like their fees. Meanwhile, how many Americans are still out of work thanks to BoA’s incompetence? You asked about raises. Do you think someone who almost put the company out of business asking for a raise might be a bit outrageous? They should be kissing our feet for saving their incompetent ass. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/115 "2011-10-28T01:50:21Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > … - it’s a huge organization, inevitably it will make some mistakes, and trying to assign any significance to those mistakes only shows that you care more about promoting your agenda than actually looking at the situation objectively. Excusing their mistakes as symptomatic of a huge organization simply underscores the need to strip the banks back to much smaller organizations. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/116 "2011-10-28T02:40:50Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > If you want to complain about this kind of entitled thinking, complain about the people who feel they have a “right” to free healthcare even if they can’t produce enough value to pay for insurance themselves. > [@Princhester](#): > > Isn’t it fun to demonise those we don’t like and pretend they have some sort of twisted moral code so we can get angry at the attributes we made up and pinned on them? > [@Absolute](#): > > I think he is responding to the various people who seem to think that any business that ends a year with more than they started with has committed some heinous crime against mankind, and that he left off the “try”. Isn’t it fun to angelicize those we like and pretend they have some sort of perfect moral code so we can rejoice at the attributes we made up and pinned on them? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/117 "2011-10-28T04:45:44Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Excusing their mistakes as symptomatic of a huge organization simply underscores the need to strip the banks back to much smaller organizations. I never said they should be excused, merely that they’re inevitable and only significant to intentional mud-slingers like **Cheesesteak**. The fact that, out of 50 million foreclosed mortgages, Bank of America fucked up their prosecution of one or two of them is totally goddamned irrelevant unless you’re more concerned with scoring points than actually forming a reasonable opinion. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > Isn’t it fun to angelicize those we like and pretend they have some sort of perfect moral code so we can rejoice at the attributes we made up and pinned on them? Please explain how the post you quoted implies Moynihan has a perfect moral code. While you’re at it, point out the rejoicing. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/118 "2011-10-28T06:06:06Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Isn’t it fun to angelicize those we like and pretend they have some sort of perfect moral code so we can rejoice at the attributes we made up and pinned on them? Sorry, you don’t get where I’m coming from at all. I accept that I have probably posted snippets rather than laying out any cohesive manifesto. I’m a lefty who works in a legal/corporate right wing world. I kid myself that I see both sides. Demonisation gets no one anywhere. Companies are groups of people. The people who work in companies are generally about as evil and as grasping and as nice and as thoughtful and as charitable as most. The hilarious thing is that some people don’t see the obvious parallels between the sense of entitlement I percieve in wanting to have a debit card one can use but not pay for and the sense of entitlement some percieve in wanting to make a profit from offering a debit card service. It cuts both ways. When a company does something that seems “entitled” the concentrated and high profile nature of their actions draws fire. After all, companies are concentrators of the will and investment of large groups of people. The effects are more obvious and impersonal. When a bunch of disconnected people do something just as entitled the diffusion hides the similarity to what companies do. Really, the parallel is to what Agent K said in MiB: “A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it.” > [@Hbns](#): > > Excusing their mistakes as symptomatic of a huge organization simply underscores the need to strip the banks back to much smaller organizations. Who would, in the aggregate, make the same rate or quite possibly a higher rate of mistakes. Occasionally shit happens. Focussing on that as if it provides an accurate broad picture is a fool’s game or a polemicist’s gambit. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/119 "2011-10-28T06:54:12Z")
It’s always amusing to hear the corporate apologists whine about a corp’s right to make a profit. Sorry, but the constitution doesn’t protect business models. Yet. Admittedly Princhester is more reasonable. > [@Princhester](#): > > And are these fees outrageous? What objective yardstick do you use to judge that? > > How much do you think a debit card service should cost a customer? I’m not sure I can see $60 per annum as being out of proportion to the cost of running such a system. Yes, I know the banks also take fees from merchants. Without knowing the total cost of running the system compared to the income it brings in I am not in a position to judge. 1. Australia put the lid on bank fees years ago, so actually this sort of data does exist. 2. Clamp down on debit and consumers will make greater use of cash. Cash is actually a pretty costly transaction mechanism, most of it coming from banks. It’s about one half of one percent of GDP per year, which is huge. Cite: [http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/10/how-to-reduce-reliance-on-cash/](http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/10/how-to-reduce-reliance-on-cash/) 3. Other banks are not following BofA’s lead, and I doubt whether this will push them over the edge: [Banks Surrender on Debit Card Fees — For Now – Mother Jones](http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/10/banks-surrender-debit-card-fees-%E2%80%94-now) 4. It’s pretty clear that BofA blundered. Not for the first time: their takeover of Countrywide was an unforced errors. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896/120 "2011-10-28T08:19:57Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > It’s always amusing to hear the corporate apologists whine about a corp’s right to make a profit. Sorry, but the constitution doesn’t protect business models. Yet. I really think this is largely a strawman though. As has already been said, I think that the corporate detractors jump on loose language and use it to lampoon corporate apologists as if they (the apologists) are suggesting they have some sort of moral right (and/or hope to get a legal right) to a profit. I just don’t see that as what business people or corporations think or mean. In more than 20 years of working with people up to and including CEO’s of international conglomerates I have not met a single person who thinks this is true. Indeed, while I have not discussed the topic in every case, in my estimation based on general discussion and inference, every single person I have ever met in the corporate world, without exception, would think that the idea they have a legal or moral right to a profit is dumber than a box full of hammers. Most of them spend their time trying to think what \*they can do \*to make a profit; the idea they are legally or morally owed one would not cross their minds. The idea that business people think otherwise is caused by demonisation (the handmaiden of lack of familiarity) of people who are Not Like Us and therefore can be happily be assumed to have alien, weird and distasteful beliefs. I think when corporate apologists say a corporation has a right to make a profit primarily what they mean is that the counter position (that making a profit is somehow inherently illegitimate) is erroneous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boa-ceo-incensed-about-public-hostility/600896.md?page=7)