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121

I tend to agree with this. Nucky doesn’t believe in God, as he says to Margaret, “If there’s a God would he make a mug like this?” so he’s doesn’t want to be forgiven for what might be considered a “mercy” killing.

Let’s face it, Jimmy was a broken man, reeling from the murder of his wife, (the ultimate betrayal to a gangster) killed a man he tried to reconcile with, and every move he made in the gangster world turned wrong. If he wasn’t killed, he would only end up a junkie or commit suicide. That was the inevitable conclusion to this character. The problem for the audience is they felt for Jimmy, because Pitt drew him so convincingly well. But Nucky didn’t feel pity. Nucky only cares about Nucky.

122

By the way, I loved this exchange –

Nucky: “Why is there no brandy?”

Eddie: “Because someone drank it?”

Nucky: “What, are you cracking wise now?”

I think we’re going a little overboard on the Nucky analysis here. I don’t think events have showed that he is entirely without pity or cares for nothing but himself.

But he did show that he could be pushed into a situation in which he would lash out lethally. The biggest change here is that he was finally put in a situation in which he wanted to pull the trigger himself instead of delegating it to someone else.

I’d be interested in seeing which direction Gillian goes in this. The Commodore and Gillian were really the brains in that operation. Eli is a sniveling idiot and Jimmy was a pathetic train wreck. There was really no good reason for them to betray Nucky in the first place, but they did it out of petulance and jealousy.

After all, to a big extent, killing Jimmy was an act of mercy. I think Nucky did genuinely love him, and wanted the best for him, not just to salve his guilt over his role in Gillian’s fate. But Jimmy was fucked up, more than he had to be, and much of it was due to his one fucking idiotic decision after another all on his own.

Yeah, Nucky killed Jimmy because he was angry, but he was angry to a large extent because at some point he had hopes for Jimmy but Jimmy just could never ever make a single decision that almost anyone else would find it easy to make.

Sure, his mother was screwed up, but no one forced him to beat up his professor and fuck his mother. And then no one forced him to enlist. And then … etc. Jimmy was essentially a monster of his own making, an out-of-control squalling id spreading chaos wherever he went. Jimmy never knew which way was up. It was Angela’s extreme misfortune ever to get involved with him and once she did, she never had a chance.

Anyway, I think my point is that it’s not true that “Nucky cares only about Nucky,” but rather that he does have a capacity to care, but his self-preservation will trump that. And that in itself is not necessarily all that unusual among even those we think of as being “good” people. He’s way down at the other end of the scale, but he’s still on a human scale. He’s not (yet) a psychopathic killer who sees nothing of value in the lives surrounding him.

123

Just wanted to say that Jack Huston was ridiculously good this season as Richard Harrow.

124

I agree. I think Nucky cares about Margret and her kids. And I think he does see himself as serving a sort of higher purpose by running the political machinations of NJ. For all his belittling of his cronies, he seems pretty committed to making sure that everyone gets their fair share and things run smoothly. Compare to the other “bosses” in the show, who are constantly ripping each other off and murdering their underlings.

I hope they stay focused on Nucky’s political machine in the next season. Mobsters have been done to death, while there have been a lot fewer shows and movies about more legit political bosses like Nucky. I find the latter a lot more interesting then the former.

125

Just a couple of things. Jimmy was screwed up from the get go. He was damaged goods as a child, and when that mother re-entered his life at school where he hoped to get away, his spiral downward was fast and furious. Anyone who has been molested as a child has enduring emotional scars as an adult. People talk of priests abusing a child’s trust. Imagine if the abuser is your own mother? Add to this Jimmy was molested a baby, there was little chance that Jimmy could ever escape out of that foxhole she dug for him. We never see him going over the hill at the end, because he was was so weighted down by the gravity of his situation in life. So “nobody” made him beat up his prof, or do his mother? It was inevitable. I dare say Gillian knew what he would do, it’s programmed to happen ever since she kissed his winky. He reacted like a jealous lover, and there was little he could do to stop it.
My point about Nucky only caring about Nucky is absolutely “self preservation” If he allows himself to care he might be as sympathic to Jimmy as the audience, but he can’t let that happen. Jimmy is self destructive, and will take everyone down with him.

126

I don’t really agree about Nucky caring about Margaret and the children. He may care for her in a perfunctory way, but keeping Margaret around and marrying her is the only sure way she won’t testify. He knows she’s troubled by all the guilt associated with his work, and marrying her makes her an “honest” woman. She was shunned by her own family and that hurt her deeply. My guess is even if Margaret betrays him with Owen, unless it affects “business” he won’t allow it to interfere with his decisions. I doubt he will be moved to passion killing, but he will kill for expediency of his business dealings. It’s cleaner that way, since he knows that gratititude, not “love” is her part of the bargain. Moreover, she knows far too much about his business. The children are merely a conduit to her affection for him, but it is a manipulative affection. We see her watching him getting the daughter to walk, and she makes the decision to marry. They both are cunning and manipulative and for me it’s a fascinating study in how people with truly machiavellian motives function as man and wife.

127

Again, I think this is considerably overstating the matter. “Kissing his winky” when he’s a baby? It’s inevitable that this is going to program the rest of his life? I can’t accept that with a straight face.

And we really don’t know enough about what Gillian might have done to him between kissing his winkie and having sex with him at college to come to any reasonable conclusion about whether he was molested in a way that was likely to leave an indelible impression.

Even then, I doubt that parental sexual abuse, while certainly damaging, actually programs a person to enlist in the army and then become a murderer.

There’s just too much predestination in all of that. Yeah, the revelations about sexual abuse by Catholic priest has taught us a lot, but what we haven’t seen is large numbers of people “programmed” to end up like Jimmy.

I’m not sure what you’re saying here. I don’t see any reason to believe that Nucky is unsympathetic to Jimmy. In fact, he’s probably a lot more sympathetic to Jimmy than I am, as a member of the audience. In fact, Jimmy wouldn’t have survived as long as he did without tremendous sympathy on Nucky’s part, as Eli well knows.

There are things in the mix other than Nucky’s ability to sympathize with Jimmy.

128

Yea, but thats only been true the last few episodes. Before that he didn’t really have any reason to keep her around other then affection. He can obviously get laid pretty easily without the baggage of a widow with children, and she doesn’t really have anything he needs materially.

It was established early in the series Nucky wanted kids. And he’s always been affectionate towards the children (and looked devastated when he found out whatsherface had polio at which time Margret was on another continent and couldn’t have known his reaction). I don’t think he’s really been using them to manipulate her. Again, he hasn’t really had a reason to need to manipulate her until the last few episodes when his legal troubles started to get serious.

The relationship doesn’t really make a lot of sense if you don’t assume he loves her and the kids.

129

I don’t think either of them are so extremely Machiavellian in this respect. And I’m getting the weird feeling that we’re watching two different shows with two completely different Nuckys here.

Large portions of the story make no sense unless Nucky has genuine affection for Margaret and the children. We already know in a way that no one else in the story can know (except maybe Lucy) that Nucky adores children. And we’ve seen his interactions with Teddy that show that he genuinely cares for him.

Neither Nucky nor Margaret is a cartoonish Machiavelli here. They both have motives and concerns, but neither of them is a cold fish. (Not yet anyway.)

130

Seriously? If Nucky was as sympathetic a character as you say he is, he would have spared Jimmy’s pathetic life. He’s not God. But that act of mercy killing puts him in gangster territory where they think they’re above God.

131

Yeah seriously!

Let us not forget that Nucky’s true nature in regards to family was revealed in the first season, when we were shown his deep grief over his wife’s death, and it was made clear that she was a woman very much like Margaret, not Lucy. Plus we have Nucky’s back story of his hideous childhood, he’s obviously trying to create as an adult what he did not have himself, a ridiculously common thing.

132

Not everyone is as receptive to Nucky being a gangster as I am. I think the show has moved him to “full on” gangster with the Darmody killing. Even the most ruthless gangsters can have domestic bliss. But it comes with a very high price. He dabbles in “affection” for children, but when push comes to shove, these aren’t his kids, they’re the children of a man he had killed. The reality of the situation juxtaposed against his tender moments with Teddy, only reinforces for me that Teddy will someday find out the truth.

133

Speaking of Richard, it will be interesting to see how he deals with the murder of his friend.

134

Not just one friend, but he was very close to Angela too. They were really the only two people he’s connected with since the war. Terence Winter talks about this in the interview I posted upthread. Basically, when Jimmy left he gave Richard permission to not come and Richard knew deep down that Jimmy wasn’t coming back. He was already reconciled with this and will not be seeking revenge or anything. He will, however, still be a part of the show going forward.

135

At first I couldn’t believe he actually shot him, I just kept expecting him to turnaround and shoot the (bah, the jewish gangster…can’t remember his name right now) but damn, when he pulled the trigger I was just shocked.

But looking at it now, what else could have happened? I mean Nuk took care of this kid his entire life. Put him thru (at least part) college, watched over him as a kid, and tried to give him a nice paying job when he got back… and the bastard tries to kill him. No matter what he does to atone for that, he tried to kill him. You can’t “fix” that.

Can’t wait for the next season. Awesome stuff.