# Bob Dylan just won the Nobel Prize for literature **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 13, 2016, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405 "2016-10-13T11:11:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/141 "2016-10-19T02:28:42Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. As **Ike** has pointed out - and you haven’t rebutted - the changes for which he is most famous have severely pissed off his fans and were disliked for being _counter_ to the zeitgeist. Have whatever opinion you like but the reason you’ve given for it simply doesn’t make sense. Oh, come on now, that’s a bit hostile, don’t you think, and for no discernible reason other than that I don’t admire the same singer you do. “Exudes smarmy willingness” doesn’t lend itself to factual enumeration - it’s purely impressionistic. That’s how he strikes me, and it is probably due to his vocalizations, subtle body language, and/or facial tics that aren’t easily identified on a conscious level. I’m sorry if my lack of interest in rebutting other people’s fondness for Dylan bothers you. Go enjoy his music and chill out! ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/142 "2016-10-19T04:23:37Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > “Exudes smarmy willingness” doesn’t lend itself to factual enumeration - it’s purely impressionistic. I think you know that isn’t the counter factual part of your statement to which Ike and I were responding. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/143 "2016-10-19T05:55:03Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I think you know that isn’t the counter factual part of your statement to which Ike and I were responding. Okay, then I shall state my opinion differently: To me, Bob Dylan exudes an air of inauthenticity. Everything about the way he sings makes me feel that he is interested in being famous. I don’t get your tone, though. You are accusing me of deliberating misunderstanding you and Ike, which is a fairly nasty accusation. C’mon, man. It’s music, something that should all make us happier, not angry. If you were to tell me that Javanese gamelan (the music I care about most) sounds to you like cows vomiting, I might disagree with you, but I would not press you for factual evidence to support that, nor would I impugn your posting strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/144 "2016-10-19T12:32:08Z")
As I said at the outset, you are free to have whatever opinions you like. Don’t pretend I’ve ever said otherwise. But if you don’t want to be challenged on factual matters, don’t say factual things. What you said originally made no sense, factually. This is the SDMB: apparently counterfactual assertions get challenged. Don’t act all butthurt about it, you know the culture here. And you can say I’m making nasty accusations but it was pretty damn obvious what Ike and I were saying. If you genuinely didn’t understand what we were saying then so be it. But I have trouble believing that, frankly. Being insincere is a fairly nasty also. Don’t be insincere then act all butthurt when you get called on it. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/145 "2016-10-19T13:05:29Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > Okay, then I shall state my opinion differently: To me, Bob Dylan exudes an air of inauthenticity. Everything about the way he sings makes me feel that he is interested in being famous. > > I don’t get your tone, though. You are accusing me of deliberating misunderstanding you and Ike, which is a fairly nasty accusation. > > C’mon, man. It’s music, something that should all make us happier, not angry. If you were to tell me that Javanese gamelan (the music I care about most) sounds to you like cows vomiting, I might disagree with you, but I would not press you for factual evidence to support that, nor would I impugn your posting strategy. “inauthenticity”? Most commercial musicians are interested in success. By “commercial” I mean anyone _not_ recorded by ethnomusicologists. The Carter Family learned from Ralph Peer how to copyright songs (many of which they “found” rather than wrote) so they could sell records–and get paid by those who covered their tunes. And they were definitely mountain folk from Virginia. I love gamelan music–which gamelans are performing currently? Most of the recordings (from Nonesuch, etc.) were done many years ago, by “authentic” performers who probably earned _nada_ from their work. My own city’s Space City Gamelan hasn’t done much recently. And what’s wrong with Balinese gamelan? ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/146 "2016-10-19T20:50:12Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I love gamelan music–which gamelans are performing currently? Most of the recordings (from Nonesuch, etc.) were done many years ago, by “authentic” performers who probably earned _nada_ from their work. My own city’s Space City Gamelan hasn’t done much recently. And what’s wrong with Balinese gamelan? Nothing wrong with Balinese gamelan - musically, it’s quite different from Javanese. Those of us who study one or both sometimes say “Balinese gamelan is hard to start studying, but gets easier. Javanese gamelan is easy to start, but gets harder.” Space City Gamelan veers toward more experimental/modern use of gamelan instruments, if I’m not mistaken. Certainly the videos I’ve seen of their stuff (which for all I know is not a representative subset) didn’t resemble what more traditional ensembles perform. Nothing wrong with that, of course - it’s just that if you’ve seen a Space City performance, you _may_ not have seen classical Javanese gamelan. A few years back when I was visiting Houston I talked to them about coming for a visit - they were super-nice and welcoming and even suggested I consider giving them some kendhang (drum) lessons, since I am studying some of the more difficult parts that are played. However, Houston is a huge city and I was staying over on the other side, without a car - so I never did go there. My sense is that they are really nice people, though, and eager to learn. I was bummed that I couldn’t go visit them. (As to who is performing in the US, I don’t really know, since I’m in Indonesia - but there are dozens of active gamelan groups around the country, especially in NYC, Boston, and several places in California. There is a [list on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gamelan_ensembles_in_the_United_States) of groups. I wasn’t involved in the fight myself, but my recollection from a few years ago was that they had to fight to keep the entry; some of the Wikipedia editors didn’t feel it met the criteria for being included. It’s really helpful if you are looking for a place to play/study/listen to gamelan in the US, though, so I’m glad it’s there.) ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/147 "2016-10-19T20:51:36Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > As I said at the outset, you are free to have whatever opinions you like. Don’t pretend I’ve ever said otherwise. > > But if you don’t want to be challenged on factual matters, don’t say factual things. What you said originally made no sense, factually. This is the SDMB: apparently counterfactual assertions get challenged. Don’t act all butthurt about it, you know the culture here. > > And you can say I’m making nasty accusations but it was pretty damn obvious what Ike and I were saying. If you genuinely didn’t understand what we were saying then so be it. But I have trouble believing that, frankly. Being insincere is a fairly nasty also. Don’t be insincere then act all butthurt when you get called on it. Not butthurt at all, just dismayed. Enjoy your music, I’ll enjoy mine, no need to be hostile over MUSIC, of all things. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/148 "2016-10-20T05:18:52Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > Not butthurt at all, just dismayed. Enjoy your music, I’ll enjoy mine, no need to be hostile over MUSIC, of all things. The hostility is your perception. Ike and I simply stated you were in error, which is pretty darn normal around here. And your current “hey let’s all just enjoy our own music” thing is more than a little ironic when you consider that this line of discussion started with you saying you didn’t like certain music based on a factually incorrect premise. Maybe don’t criticise what you don’t understand, and then you can be left to enjoy your own music? ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/149 "2016-10-20T14:55:40Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > Okay, then I shall state my opinion differently: To me, Bob Dylan exudes an air of inauthenticity. Everything about the way he sings makes me feel that he is interested in being famous. I get the same feeling from him. Not that he’s inauthentic per se, more that he has this arrogance and an air of “I’m so much better than you” that really irks my nerves. Now if he could actually sing I might be more forgiving. I love Paul Simon and he’s got that same air about him. Dylan cannot cannot **can. not. sing.** He sounds like out-of-tune bagpipes to me. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/150 "2016-10-20T23:00:40Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > Okay, then I shall state my opinion differently: To me, Bob Dylan exudes an air of inauthenticity. Everything about the way he sings makes me feel that he is interested in being famous. Inauthentic? Well, maybe. He was authentically a Jewish kid from Minnesota who wanted to be like his heroes, and his first interviews contained fantasies of his hard life on the road. But wanting to be famous? Sure - he is all over the talk shows and tweets like crazy and sends out videos all the time. Not. Hell, his second marriage was a big secret. He is authentic in following where his art takes him, even if it means throwing over his position as top folk singer and going back to his rock and roll roots. Even in the released 1964 concert he was making fun of his protest song reputation. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/151 "2016-10-20T23:41:12Z")
Dylan’s (justified IMHO) arrogance put much better than I [ever could have](https://dimpost.wordpress.com/2016/10/14/dylans-nobel-laureate/): > [@](#): > > There’s a great documentary about Dylan called Don’t Look Back, filmed in 1967 during Dylan’s first tour of the UK. He’s in his mid-twenties, and he’s a pretty awful person. One of the sub-plots is based on his rivalry with Donovan, a UK folk singer. The two musicians meet in a hotel room: Dylan is a rude jerk, Donovan plays a song, and it’s pretty good! (He wrote ‘Mellow Yellow’ and ‘Hurdy Gurdy Man’!) And then Dylan picks up the guitar and plays ‘It’s all Over Now Baby Blue’, and you see the sickening realisation dawn on Donovan’s face that the person he’s been set up as a rival to is someone who might be bratty and rude but is also, crushingly, completely unfairly, Bob Dylan. ---
**Author:** ![quimper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7c8e57/32.png) [@quimper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quimper)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/152 "2016-10-21T18:23:06Z")
[Inquiring minds want to know!](https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/oct/21/bob-dylan-unacknowledges-nobel-prize-literature-win-removed-website) ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/153 "2016-10-21T22:22:37Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > It’s not that - it’s just that he exudes a smarmy willingness to reinvent himself at any time, not to explore new artistic horizons but to suss out what will get him the most worshipful accolades. > > I _know_ this is a view that very few people hold (though I have read a critique occasionally from others who agree and who have the musical/socio-historical knowledge to explain their point of view), and I grudgingly concede that there is much in his oeuvre that appeals to a lot of people. > > I probably shouldn’t have posted, and I thoroughly apologize if it seems like thread-shitting. I was just hoping against hope there might be a few Dopers who agree with me about Mr. Zimmerman. (Who is no Dylan Thomas, that’s for sure.) Sorry if I’m opening wounds, but the first sentence is the most absurd thing I have ever seen on here. Wrong in every possible way. It sounds like someone just hating and projecting onto famous people. It’s so specific and yet apparently just an impressionistic thing in the end? ---
**Author:** ![scoots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@scoots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scoots)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/154 "2016-10-28T22:46:17Z")
Dylan rings the Nobel committee and accepts the prize! > **[Bob Dylan: Nobel Literature Prize left me speechless](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-37806639)** > > Bob Dylan finally acknowledges his Nobel Prize in literature, saying the news left him "speechless". ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2016, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/155 "2016-10-29T02:01:35Z")
> [@scoots](#): > > Dylan rings the Nobel committee and accepts the prize! Aw, he’s just a big ol’ softie. Next thing you know he’ll be sending birthday cards out to all his friends. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2016, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/156 "2016-10-29T10:23:34Z")
Has everyone seen this fun multi-channel video? (warning: it will take _very_ long to load if you have slow Internet): [Newscasters, soap opera stars, scholars, game show hosts, weather-girl, etc. get together to sing “Like a Rolling Stone”](http://video.bobdylan.com/desktop.html). (15 TV channels to choose from) I also felt very giddy when I heard the Nobel news … and am surprised to see I’ve not yet posted in this thread. (Probably related to the fact that the death of King Bhumipol was announced at the same time as the Nobel Prize announcement, almost to the minute.) I was pleased to see the comments comparing Dylan with Leonard Cohen. These are the two whose songs I often sang to myself when alone. I was somewhat ashamed of my fondness for Cohen, often called the singer who can’t sing! :rolleyes: Anyway, congratulations to Bob Dylan … and to all of us who have admired him for more than a half-century. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2016, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/157 "2016-10-29T11:22:47Z")
So he will show up - cool! Want to wager whether he will describe himself as a “ **song and dance man** ” in his speech? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2016, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/158 "2016-10-29T12:38:51Z")
Man, I was just thinking the other day that it was so classic Dylan to reject a plaudit from just about as Establishment Elite an institution as they come, by confusing the hell out of them. “And you know something is happening here, but you don’t know what it is… Do you, Swedish Academy?” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/159 "2016-10-30T10:09:51Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I was pleased to see the comments comparing Dylan with Leonard Cohen. These are the two whose songs I often sang to myself when alone. I was somewhat ashamed of my fondness for Cohen, often called the singer who can’t sing! :rolleyes: If you know you need to venture into the darkest parts of your soul in order to save it, and you’re bracing yourself for the journey, I’m not sure there’s anyone _but_ Leonard Cohen you’d want to be listening to. He’s not going to bullshit you about how dark it can get in there, but at the same time his songs will help you through. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405/160 "2016-10-30T10:58:49Z")
> [@scoots](#): > > Dylan rings the Nobel committee and accepts the prize! > > [Bob Dylan: Nobel Literature Prize left me speechless - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-37806639) [Charles P. Pierce](http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a50131/dylan-stockholm/): “Once, when he accepted an honorary degree, we got a great song out of it. We can only hope.” CPP was referring to “Day of the Locusts,” which is a longtime favorite of mine. I went to [bobdylan.com/songs](http://bobdylan.com/songs) to see how many times Dylan had played “Day of the Locusts” in concert - that page keeps that count for all Dylan’s songs, and he’s sung some of them literally thousands of times. How many times has Dylan performed “Locusts”? Zero. Which had me asking the question, which maybe should have its own thread, so I’m giving it one: [what’s the best Dylan song that he’s never played in concert?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=808951) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-just-won-the-nobel-prize-for-literature/768405.md?page=9)