# Bob Dylan seized **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2009, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617 "2009-08-16T11:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/21 "2009-08-16T18:54:01Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Its a good thing it wasn’t Henry Louis Gates. > > But they didn’t arrest him. They gave him a ride back to his tour bus (perhaps believing that they were going to have to detain him when he turned out to be delusional). He cooperated - got into the car, and got dropped off at the tour buses. There really wasn’t much of an “incident” - cops give rock star a ride back to his tour bus - not believing he is the guy he claims to be. No, and I never said they arrested him. An arrest is different from a detention. > [@](#): > > While detention requires only that police have reasonable suspicion that a person is involved in criminal activity, an arrest requires that the officer have probable cause to believe that the person has committed a crime. I don’t think there’s any question that there was no probable cause here. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/22 "2009-08-16T18:57:16Z")
> [@Campion](#): > > To the OP: can you clarify precisely what it is about this story that pings your radar? The OP asked specific questions. Can you clarify precisely what you’d like the OP to clarify? > [@](#): > > I don’t see anything wrong with what the police did. It _is_ suspicious to be out wandering in the rain. Normal people generally don’t go wandering through neighborhoods in the rain (yes, there are outliers, but we’re talking about the average joe). It’s suspicious to walk in the rain? I walk in the rain all the time. I wouldn’t like it at all if the police pulled up next to me for this and asked me what I’m doing and after giving them a reasonable answer, asked me my name. Unless they’re looking for someone who recently committed a crime and have reason to believe I may be him, it’s harassment. What crime am I more likely to commit in the rain than on a dry night and if there is anything more likely, without good reason that I am a threat to commit that crime, I shouldn’t be asked by police what my name is and prove I am who I say I am, even if I do claim to be a rock star. > [@](#): > > So there’s an old guy, wandering through a neighborhood in the rain, prompting a call from residents – hey, there’s a guy we don’t know know wandering around, can you check it out? Police can’t/shouldn’t ignore that. Why not? Why is it relevant that a person that walks in the rain didn’t do so in a neighborhood where the residents are familiar with him? Okay, so the police play it safe by having a nearby cruiser ride by. There’s the wanderer walking down the street doing nothing wrong? How about driving away since there’s nothing else going on but a man walking in the rain? Okay, they play it more safe and ask him what he’s doing. He answers with a reasonable answer. Everything else now starting with asking him for his name and ID is unreasonable and harassment. > [@](#): > > I’m just not seeing the outrage here. I didn’t see any outrage either. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/23 "2009-08-16T19:18:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, and I never said they arrested him. An arrest is different from a detention. They didn’t even detain him. They offered him a ride. He took it. Maybe, had he not had the backup when he got off the bus, they would have detained him. Maybe, had he said no to the ride, they’d have detained him. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/24 "2009-08-16T19:24:30Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > They didn’t even detain him. They offered him a ride. > [@](#): > > "why don’t you get in the car and we’ll drive to the hotel and go verify this?’ " That doesn’t sound like an offer for a free ride from a police officer to me. That sounds like his identity needs to be verified at another location and “why don’t you get in the car” is a polite way of saying “get in the car.” ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/25 "2009-08-16T19:25:45Z")
An elderly man dressed shabbily, walking in the rain, claiming to be Bob Dylan looking for a house to buy sounds a little weird. Not criminally weird, mind you, but more of a delusional old man kind of weird. Yes, the police occasionally do have to deal with older people are delusional or suffering from dementia. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/26 "2009-08-16T19:40:06Z")
> [@](#): > > “why don’t you get in the car” is a polite way of saying “get in the car.” And saying “I don’t want to get in the car” is a polite way of saying “no”. The police are called and they’re told a poorly dressed old man is wandering around the neighborhood, including walking onto people’s front yards, in the rain. They respond and the guy claims he’s Bob Dylan. Face facts: the odds are 6000000000:1 that he’s not Bob Dylan. The reasonable assumption is that you’re dealing with somebody who’s delusional. He wasn’t arrested. He wasn’t detained. The officer asked him if she could give him a ride somewhere. She was probably expecting she would end up turning him over to local mental health services. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/27 "2009-08-16T20:02:45Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > No, this entire post is what’s fucked. > > Police shouldn’t be in the business of detaining anyone walking around in the rain. Who the hell cares whether he was a rock star or not? Even if he _was_ a homeless bum who lied about his identity? Unless he needed help or was committing a crime, the police should have left him the hell alone. Agree. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/28 "2009-08-16T20:18:51Z")
from what i’ve read so far it seems someone did not do the very obvious. mr dylan has a very distinctive voice. all they had to do was ask him to sing a few lines of one of his songs. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/29 "2009-08-16T20:42:08Z")
> [@rocking\_chair](#): > > All they had to do was ask him to sing a few lines of one of his songs. Assaulting a police officer is a serious offense. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/30 "2009-08-16T20:51:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And saying “I don’t want to get in the car” is a polite way of saying “no”. And telling the police “no” when they tell you to get in their car isn’t very wise. What’s the point of bringing this up? > [@](#): > > The police are called and they’re told a poorly dressed old man is wandering around the neighborhood, including walking onto people’s front yards, in the rain. Close. He walked on one front lawn. And so what? He responded that he was looking at a house for sale. He should have been left alone after this. > [@](#): > > They respond and the guy claims he’s Bob Dylan. After they ask him what his name is. > [@](#): > > Face facts: the odds are 6000000000:1 that he’s not Bob Dylan. That’s not a fact and it’s irrelevant. Claiming to be someone famous is grounds for police to have you produce ID at another location? Odds are he doesn’t have any particular name. I’d bet every police officer in Long Branch was aware Bob Dylan’s tour buses along with Bob Dylan were in their town. An old man responding in to Long Branch police officers that he’s Bob Dylan just had the odds go up that he’s actually Bob Dylan. But this is also irrelevant. He shouldn’t be asked who he is and he shouldn’t have to prove he is who he says he is when he did nothing wrong. > [@](#): > > The reasonable assumption is that you’re dealing with somebody who’s delusional. No, it’s not. If he’s a delusional man that is a danger to himself or someone else, there would be more signs that would be easily ascertained without taking him for a ride to produce identification. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/31 "2009-08-16T20:51:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And saying “I don’t want to get in the car” is a polite way of saying “no”. I thought “I don’t want to get in the car” was a polite way of saying “Taser me until the batteries run flat.” ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/32 "2009-08-16T21:43:28Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > They didn’t even detain him. They offered him a ride. He took it. Maybe, had he not had the backup when he got off the bus, they would have detained him. Maybe, had he said no to the ride, they’d have detained him. “Produce ID or we’ll detain you” and “Get in the car or we’ll detain you” both sound an awful lot like “We’re detaining you”. “You have to come with us and do what we say, or else we’ll make you come with us and do what we say.” 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/33 "2009-08-16T21:44:20Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I thought “I don’t want to get in the car” was a polite way of saying “Taser me until the batteries run flat.” Which is a polite way for a cop who tasers an innocent person to say “and sue my police department and make sure I get suspended without pay.” We can play this game for days… ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/34 "2009-08-16T21:54:49Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > No, this entire post is what’s fucked. > > Police shouldn’t be in the business of detaining anyone walking around in the rain. Who the hell cares whether he was a rock star or not? Even if he _was_ a homeless bum who lied about his identity? Unless he needed help or was committing a crime, the police should have left him the hell alone. First of all, he wasn’t detained. One with the testicular fortitude to comment on what the police should or should not be doing ought to be familiar with basic concepts such detention and reasonable suspicion, never mind the thick blue line between interrogative versus investigative questioning. Apparently you are not familiar with these concepts. This is especially clear when we look at your supposition that lying to the police about one’s identity should be construed as something nobody should care about. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/35 "2009-08-16T22:12:11Z")
I thought this was the crux of the OP: > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I mean, once stopped, if I resist, then the police can say I was not obeying their lawful instructions. But if I don’t resist, then I’ve tacitly agreed to the seizure. How can a person actually get out of this situation without being arrested, questioned, searched, etc.? > > ISTM that he was not free to leave, that he was in fact “seized” even tho no one involved bothered to articulate any reason for his seizure. Basically, some of us took it for granted that we have a right to stand/walk in the public space without turning over our papers to a questioning officer. That the officer was responding to a citizen’s complaint or call is irrelevant (i.e., there were no accusations of disturbing the peace). If I am walking alone, with no identification, rain or not, in my own neighborhood or not, am I legally bound to provide a questioning officer with suitable identification and backstory to justify my existence? Pretend there’s no racism involved and everyone is polite. If I (politely) refuse to answer the policeman’s questions about what I am doing and (politely) decline his offer to go with him, have I violated a law? Should everyone who is out of doors and without identification be compelled to provide such or face arrest? Given that the courts have outlined a host of various types of stops and outlined various limits to the police power to detain and/or search, should that be scrapped for a much simpler standard of _upon demand, present ID to the questioning officer(s) satisfaction, until such time you are in custodial care_? Would the officer need any particular level of cause, or are simple hunches allowed? Is this a right/left issue? Seems like suggesting that Dylan (or anyone else in a vaguely similar situation) _should_ have provided ID or other credible reason for his being there would be in favour of a National Identification System, with mandatory carrying and presentation of said ID at the request of any law enforcement officer. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/36 "2009-08-16T22:40:40Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > First of all, he wasn’t detained. One with the testicular fortitude to comment on what the police should or should not be doing ought to be familiar with basic concepts such detention and reasonable suspicion, never mind the thick blue line between interrogative versus investigative questioning. Apparently you are not familiar with these concepts. This is especially clear when we look at your supposition that lying to the police about one’s identity should be construed as something nobody should care about. I’m not a lawyer or a cop, so I’m not going to weigh in on what is legal or what is allowed. But I have a moral standard, and saying “come with us or else” to anyone is a dick move, unless they’re posing a danger to someone. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/37 "2009-08-16T23:32:44Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Is this a right/left issue? Seems like suggesting that Dylan (or anyone else in a vaguely similar situation) _should_ have provided ID or other credible reason for his being there would be in favour of a National Identification System, with mandatory carrying and presentation of said ID at the request of any law enforcement officer. It didn’t involve a national police force nor did it require a national identification. He could have produced pretty much anything with his name and address on it as a basis of conversation. Anyone with a lick of sense would have found it odd that a famous musician was out walking in the rain looking at houses and coudn’t produce any identification. It is far more likely that it wasn’t Bob Dylan which means it was prudent for the police to establish that he wasn’t out looking for Girl Scouts. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/38 "2009-08-16T23:50:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Basically, some of us took it for granted that we have a right to stand/walk in the public space without turning over our papers to a questioning officer. Yeah, **Rythmdvl** , count me in there. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/39 "2009-08-17T00:22:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Anyone with a lick of sense would have found it odd that a famous musician was out walking in the rain looking at houses and coudn’t produce any identification. Sure, it’s odd. That doesn’t mean it’s any of their damn business, though. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617/40 "2009-08-17T01:08:27Z")
> [@Campion](#): > > To the OP: can you clarify precisely what it is about this story that pings your radar? I don’t see anything wrong with what the police did. It _is_ suspicious to be out wandering in the rain. Normal people generally don’t go wandering through neighborhoods in the rain (yes, there are outliers, but we’re talking about the average joe). Part of policing is figuring out what’s normal and what’s not. > > So there’s an old guy, wandering through a neighborhood in the rain, prompting a call from residents – hey, there’s a guy we don’t know know wandering around, can you check it out? Police can’t/shouldn’t ignore that. > > So the police very politely ask him who he is and what he’s doing. He tells them he is a very famous person, but unfortunately, so sad, doesn’t have id. Guess what? Crazy people sometimes claim to be famous people, and they also generally don’t have id. So now we’ve got a couple weirdnesses. > > First, I haven’t read **Brendlin** and don’t really care to. Your question, which isn’t clear, seems to be: how can a person know if they’re free to leave? Answer: ask. My cite is the three hundred million threads here about this very issue, which I cannot be bothered to find but presume someone else will. The point is this – so what if Dylan was “seized” within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment? The police had suspicions, he couldn’t allay them (and query whether he was in a jurisdiction that requires people to produce id on demand, as many jurisdictions do), so the police investigated, determined he was who he said he was, and let him go. > > I’m just not seeing the outrage here. ## “It IS suspicious to be out wandering in the rain” I just can’t wrap my head around someone actually believing this. It may be unusual (for some) or possibly unorthodox (depending on your point of view) but suspicious??? I am not planning any vigils to protest Dylan’s treatment in New Jersey, but walking in the rain should NOT cause for being stopped and questioned by the police in the United States of America. (for a musical legend or a homeless drifter) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-dylan-seized/506617.md?page=3)