# Bob McDonnell trial/conviction **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583 "2014-09-05T14:37:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/61 "2014-09-06T02:02:01Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But his taking money to use government resources on behalf of the company, or to try to push state employees to work for the benefit of the company probably is, and that’s what he was convicted for. Agreed. And it seems to be the definition of “quid pro quo.” The “he gave $200k and nothing has been done” emails are damning. I don’t care about his party; he’s a guilty bastard. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/62 "2015-01-06T21:33:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Former Virginia governor Bob McDonnell will spend two years in federal prison after asking for mercy Tuesday at his own sentencing hearing on public corruption convictions. > **[Ex-Va. gov sentenced to 2 years in prison for corruption](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/01/06/bob-mcdonnell-sentencing/21321365/)** > > Bob McDonnell thankful for 'mercy' but says he will appeal immediately. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/63 "2015-01-07T01:57:42Z")
Rank and file government employees have to follow the law, and there are very real consequences for not doing so. Why should McDonnell not have to follow the same rules everyone else does? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/64 "2015-01-07T02:35:44Z")
Can someone explain how his wife can have been involved in a crime? Is the wife of a governor automatically a government official? Or is she, somehow, bound by federal law in ways that people not married to the governor are not? What if she had been his girlfriend instead of his wife? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/65 "2015-01-07T03:46:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can someone explain how his wife can have been involved in a crime? Is the wife of a governor automatically a government official? Or is she, somehow, bound by federal law in ways that people not married to the governor are not? What if she had been his girlfriend instead of his wife? I haven’t followed too closely, but maybe some type of conspiracy or aiding and abetting. She’s an accomplice in his crime, that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/66 "2015-01-07T04:52:21Z")
According to the indictment, in various ocassions Maureen was the person initiating contact with the contributors and mentioning gee how nice it would be to have X or Y thing or how bad were their finances doing, and sure we would be so happy to speak to whoever. So she was a coparticipant in the activity that was later deemed illegal. Bob reportedly had been offered a plea deal that would not involve her, instead he felt he could fight the whole shebang but in the process threw her under the bus. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/67 "2015-01-07T16:36:51Z")
I got a kick out of his statement to the media. It was some blather about how he trusts in Jesus Christ, or something like that. Religion and morality: no connection! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/68 "2015-01-07T17:25:11Z")
It was also pretty distasteful that their go-to line of defense spouted by both transvaginal Bob and the daughter was that mom was crazy. So much for keeping your marriage vows sacred and being a family man! Whatever happened to “Leave my wife out of this, I’m the one you want, I did it all”? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/69 "2015-01-07T17:36:25Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > It was also pretty distasteful that their go-to line of defense spouted by both transvaginal Bob and the daughter was that mom was crazy. So much for keeping your marriage vows sacred and being a family man! Whatever happened to “Leave my wife out of this, I’m the one you want, I did it all”? Didn’t help Ethel much, did it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/70 "2015-01-07T17:50:00Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > It was also pretty distasteful that their go-to line of defense spouted by both transvaginal Bob and the daughter was that mom was crazy. So much for keeping your marriage vows sacred and being a family man! Whatever happened to “Leave my wife out of this, I’m the one you want, I did it all”? Which marriage vow requires that a man accept legal blame for his wife’s criminal actions? You might be thinking of the now archaic laws of coverture, which did have a similar effect. As humorously invoked by _Oliver Twist’s_ workhouse manager, Bumble: > [@](#): > > ‘That is no excuse,’ replied Mr. Brownlow. ‘You were present on the occasion of the destruction of these trinkets, and indeed are the more guilty of the two, in the eye of the law; for the law supposes that your wife acts under your direction.’ > > ‘If the law supposes that,’ said Mr. Bumble, squeezing his hat emphatically in both hands, ‘the law is a ass—a idiot. If that’s the eye of the law, the law is a bachelor; and the worst I wish the law is, that his eye may be opened by experience—by experience.’ Are you somehow picturing that in today’s world, there is some sort of marriage vow that requires a man to claim criminal responsibility for a criminal act committed by his wife? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/71 "2015-01-07T18:07:50Z")
Nm ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/72 "2015-01-07T18:11:25Z")
How many of you were blaming the district attorney and the grand jury when they came back with a no bill, just very few weeks ago? This just goes to show you, as long as it benefits ‘your guy’ it’s A-OK! ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/73 "2015-01-07T18:14:05Z")
Most government employee ethics regulations include a concept of “covered relationship” which typically include relationships that involve substantial financial mingling. Typically this would be household members and close relatives, but may include others if you have shared finances for whatever reason. I’m not sure what their criminal liability is (and I’m sure it varies), but you can definitely be held accountable for their actions. You can’t make bribery legal by just handing the money to a guys wife instead. I’m not a lawyer and can’t cite the specific laws, but do you seriously think they’ve never thought this one through? Again this is something every governerment employee faces-- and it does come up-- and they all have to follow the same rules. You can’t use public office for private gain (outside of your official compensation). It’s a pretty simple concept. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/74 "2015-01-07T19:29:23Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I’m not sure what their criminal liability is (and I’m sure it varies), but you can definitely be held accountable for their actions. You can’t make bribery legal by just handing the money to a guys wife instead. No. The indictment accused McDonnell of specific criminal acts in his own right, and the jury convicted him. But if the indictment had simply accused his wife, and failed to offer any evidence of McDonnell’s own knowledge and own actions, then he could not have been convicted. No person is vicariously criminally liable for another’s actions without some criminal act of his own. “What about conspiracy?” I hear you think. A conspiracy is an agreement amongst two or more people to break the law. Members of the conspiracy are generally criminally liable for each crime any of the conspirators commit in furtherance of the conspiracy. But each has a criminal act of his own: the agreement to break the law in the first place. “What about felony murder?” Same concept: you may be liable for the murder committed by another person, but only because your own agreement to commit a qualifying underlying felony placed you in the position where another’s murder inures to your detriment. McDonnell’s guilt was proved by showing that McDonnell, himself, did guilty stuff. If the only evidence of wrongdoing were McDonnell’s wife’s, then McDonnell can’t be found guilty. “You can’t make bribery legal by just handing the money to a guys wife instead.” If that happens it means you have to show beyond a reasonable doubt that the guy’s wife knew about it. If you cannot show this, then there’s no conviction. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/75 "2015-01-07T19:41:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Which marriage vow requires that a man accept legal blame for his wife’s criminal actions? I like how you pick the most pointlessly snarky remark and try to make a federal case out of it. :rolleyes: Bob is a family man who (presumably) loves his wife, has tried to push his version of morals onto others, and chastises people who don’t follow his brand of Jesus worship. Bob should have, in order to save his wife, taken on all responsibility, seeing as how they both profited from “her” crimes, and she didn’t murder someone or something like that. That would have been the Christian thing to do. Instead, he said his wife is hysterical and is all her fault. What kind of Christian is that? Good thing it didn’t work ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/76 "2015-01-07T19:55:12Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I like how you pick the most pointlessly snarky remark and try to make a federal case out of it. :rolleyes: This is Great Debates. If you didn’t mean your remark to be factual and in support of a debate, then please make that clear. > [@](#): > > Bob is a family man who (presumably) loves his wife, has tried to push his version of morals onto others, and chastises people who don’t follow his brand of Jesus worship. Bob should have, in order to save his wife, taken on all responsibility, seeing as how they both profited from “her” crimes, and she didn’t murder someone or something like that. That would have been the Christian thing to do. Cite? What specific Christian teaching is that? And if the answer is not, “Roman Catholic,” then please explain how it’s relevant to a view of how McDonnell, a Roman Catholic, should have acted. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/77 "2015-01-07T20:18:26Z")
My understanding is that it is the wife’s Catholic duty to _obey_ her husband, whereas his include providing her _material support_, _protection_, and _moral guidance_. No? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/78 "2015-01-07T20:34:57Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > My understanding is that it is the wife’s Catholic duty to _obey_ her husband, whereas his include providing her _material support_, _protection_, and _moral guidance_. No? No. From what source did this understanding arise? Saint John Paul II’s [1982 commentary](http://www.its.caltech.edu/~nmcenter/women-cp/women-eph5.html) on Ephesians 5:21 (a passage that sometimes produces confusion along the lines you suggest) provides the Catholic view: > [@](#): > > Today we begin a more detailed analysis of the passage of the Letter to the Ephesians 5:21-23. The author, addressing husbands and wives, recommends them to be “subject to one another out of reverence for Christ” (5:21)… > The mutual relations of husband and wife should flow from their common relationship with Christ. The author of the letter speaks of the “reverence for Christ” in a sense analogous to that when he speaks of the “fear of God”. In this case it is not a question of fear which is a defensive attitude before the threat of evil, but it is above all a case of respect for holiness, for the sacrum… > > The mystery of Christ, penetrating their hearts, engendering in them that holy “reverence for Christ” (namely, pietas). should lead them to “be subject to one another”: the mystery of Christ, that is, the mystery of the choice from eternity of each of them in Christ “to be the adoptive sons” of God. > > In fact we read: “Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord” (Eph. 5:22). In saying this, the author does not intend to say that the husband is the “lord” of the wife and that the interpersonal pact proper to marriage is a pact of the domination of the husband over the wife. > > Instead, he expresses a different concept; that is, that the wife can and should find in her relationship with Christ - who is the one Lord of both the spouses - the motivation of the relationship with her husband which flows from the very essence of marriage and of the family. > > Such a relationship, however, is not one of one-sided domination. Marriage, according to the Letter to the Ephesians, excludes that element of the pact which was a burden and at times, does not cease to be a burden on this institution. > > The husband and the wife are in fact “subject to one another”, and are mutually subordinated to one another. The source of this mutual subjection is to be found in Christian pietas, and it’s expression is love. > > The author of the letter underlines this love in a special way, in addressing himself to husbands. He writes: “You husbands love your wives…”, and by expressing himself in this way, he removes any fear that might have arisen (given the modern sensitivity) from the previous phrase: “Wives, be subject to your husbands”. > > Love excludes every kind of subjection whereby the wife might become a servant or a slave of the husband, an object of unilateral domination. > > Love makes the husband simultaneously subject to the wife, and thereby subject to the Lord himself, just as the wife to the husband. And even if your understanding were correct, it would not support **Yogsooth** ’s formula. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/79 "2015-01-07T21:22:16Z")
OK, not being Catholic I missed JP’s reinterpretation of Ephesians 22. And I guess I’m not familiar with the contents of his approved Catechism either. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583/80 "2015-01-07T21:32:37Z")
^ 5:22, that is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bob-mcdonnell-trial-conviction/697583.md?page=5)