# Bobby Bowden's still behind Jo Pa **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 2, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014 "2003-11-02T18:28:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/1 "2003-11-02T18:28:35Z")
It has been widely reported, [as for example here](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/football/ncaa/10/25/wakeforest.fsu.ap/) that Florida State coach Bobby Bowden now has the most NCAA major college football coaching victories. This is a classic example of wrongly mixing apples and oranges. For the record, thirty one of Bowden’s victories came while he coached at his alma mater, Samford, a small Baptist college in Birmingham, AL from 1959-1962. Samford’s opponents were schools like Carson-Newman, Milsaps College in Mississippi, Sewanee, Maryville, Millingham, West Alabama, Wofford and the College of Georgetown, Kentucky. Such wins were in the college football equivalent of the minor leagues. By way of contrast, all of Joe Paterno’s wins came in the major league big time at Penn State. Certainly Bowden is a great coach but it is simply wrong to say that he has more major college football victories than Paterno. Roger Clemens had over 300 wins in the major leagues of baseball but they don’t count wins he had a Pawtucket in the minor leagues. I just had to get that off my chest. ---
**Author:** ![non-native](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@non-native](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/non-native)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/2 "2003-11-02T23:10:33Z")
Yeah! Joe Pa would rock Bowden’s world! Go lions! We are Penn State! We are Penn State! **WE ARE PENN STATE!** _WE ARE PENN STATE!_ _ **WE ARE PENN STATE!** _ As a penn state student i felt obligated to bump this thread. Also I would like to add that I wish we would stop losing. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/3 "2003-11-02T23:30:36Z")
> [@](#): > > This is a classic example of wrongly mixing apples and oranges. Nice melange, but you forgot to mention the sour grapes. No, wait… they were implied. What has been specifically reported is that Bowden has the most Division I-A wins. If Samfrod is Division I-A, then those wins count, too. > [@](#): > > Samford’s opponents were schools like Carson-Newman, Milsaps College in Mississippi, Sewanee, Maryville, Millingham, West Alabama, Wofford and the College of Georgetown, Kentucky. You make it sound like Bowden was coaching a major team getting easy wins against a bunch of nobodies. Er… last time I checked, Samford wasn’t actually listed among the “powerhouses” of Div I-A football, either. So for Samford, those were viable opponents. And here’s one of my favorite Bowden accomplishments, listed in [this bio](http://seminoles.ocsn.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/bowden_bobby01.html): > [@](#): > > Florida State is the only school to finish among the (Associated Press) Top Five for 14 consecutive seasons. The Seminoles finished first twice (1993, 1999), second twice (1987, 92), third, four times (1988, 89, 97, 99), fourth, five times (1990, 91, 94, 95, 96) and fifth in 2000. No team in college football history can match the run. But tell ya what. Let’s just have Paterno’s team play Bowden’s team right now, and settle this thing for good. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![herman\_and\_bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f1d935/32.png) [@herman\_and\_bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/herman_and_bill)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/4 "2003-11-03T00:39:17Z")
I’m sure Bobby did play Joe when he was coach at west Virginia, look it up. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/5 "2003-11-03T01:39:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monstre \* > \*\*You make it sound like Bowden was coaching a major team getting easy wins against a bunch of nobodies. \*\* No,what I said was that from 1959 to 1961 Bowden coached a nobody minor team against other nobody minor teams. Bowden’s teams won most of those games but so what? It’s like equating a dirt track race driver’s wins with wins on the NASCAR circuit. Bowden the dirt track racer moved up to NASCAR-like level certainly, but it is foolish to equate his wins at Sanford with wins at Penn State. As shown [here](http://cfbdatawarehouse.com) Bowden’s record against minor league opposition was 43-7: Team Record Carson-Newman 2-0 Delta State 1-0 Furman 2-1 Wofford 2-0 Georgetown 2-0 Georgia Southern 2-0 GORDON JUNIOR COL. 1-0 LOUISIANA COL. 1-0 Maryville 2-0 McNeese St. 0-1 Middle Tenn. St. 1-0 Millington 1-0 Milsaps Col. 2-0 Mississippi Col. 1-3 Rhodes 3-0 Richmond 4-2 Sewanee 2-0 Southern Illinois 1-0 TENN TECH. JV. 1-0 Tennessee-Chatt. 2-0 Tennessee-Martin 1-0 U OF MEXICO 1-0 Western Carolina 2-0 West Alabama 1-0 William & Mary 3-0 Wofford 2-0 Total 43-7 Beating a junior college, a jv team and the College of Mexico doesn’t impress me much. That same site shows that Paterno only coached against 3 minor league teams, going 3-0 against Brown, Colgate and William & Mary. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/6 "2003-11-03T02:53:26Z")
So what? You could just as easily argue that only games against top 25 teams should count… ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/7 "2003-11-03T05:05:03Z")
Ehh, you take the 31 wins then. It’ll help ease the pain of going winless in-conference. We’ll just keep the #3 ranking. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/8 "2003-11-03T14:58:09Z")
Well, **zamboni** , I guess you’ve conclusively proved that the statement “Bowden has more Division I-A wins than any other coach” is false. Or did you? Maybe you just proved that the statement "Bowden has more wins than any other coach in games that **zamboniracer** personally defines as ‘major games’ " is false. Maybe the sportswriters, newscasters, and stats-keepers chose to report it the first way because it flows more smoothly off the tongue? Dunno. You’ll have to ask them… ---
**Author:** ![LilCutie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@LilCutie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilCutie)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/9 "2003-11-03T16:20:24Z")
Well, the bottom line is, we’re #3 now, and we’ll continue to win, and pretty soon, all other coaches will be eating our dust. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/10 "2003-11-03T19:58:29Z")
> **[NCAAF Teams | ESPN](https://www.espn.com/college-football/teams)** > > Visit ESPN to view NCAA football team stats, schedules, rosters and more Samford is listed as Division I-AA. Both Florida State and Penn State are listed as Division I-A. Is there really that big of a difference? Was FSU the football powerhouse it is now when Bowden took over? Was Samford a Division I-A team back then? Can teams move from I-AA to I-A and vice versa? (I remember hearing stories of how the [University of Scranton](http://matrix.scranton.edu/) used to play Georgetown in football, back when the U of S had a football team. Both are Division III schools, but Georgetown competes on a Division I-A level in basketball.) Both Paterno and Bowden will likely be mentioned in the same breath as Bryant, Robinson, etc, when it comes to the game’s all-time greats. However, both have a long way to go to be the [winningest, period.](http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=1651882) ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/11 "2003-11-04T01:10:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Casey1505 \* > Samford is listed as Division I-AA. Both Florida State and Penn State are listed as Division I-A. > \ > Was Samford a Division I-A team back then? Can teams move from I-AA to I-A and vice versa? As an admirer of Joe Pa since I was a little kid, I hate to break it to you, [but](http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/2003/10/09/sports/6968440.htm): > [@](#): > > If there had been distinctive divisions in those days, Samford probably would have been somewhere between the current Division I-AA and Division II. Samford has been in Division I-AA since 1984. > > So why is Bowden credited with 337 I-A wins? > > “All of a coach’s wins while they are coaching a 4-year U.S. college count toward their career record,” explained Gary Johnson, the NCAA’s senior executive director of statistics. “For all-time coaches’ records, you have to have a minimum of 10 years in that division.” > > In other words, once Bowden had 10 years at a Division I-A school, all his wins counted as Division I-A wins. It is the same reason recently retired Mount St. Mary’s basketball coach Jim Phelan is credited with 830 Division I wins, even though the vast majority of them were accumulated when Mount St. Mary’s was in Division II. It is why Temple’s John Chaney has 693 Division I wins even though he got 225 of them at Division II Cheyney. Bah. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/12 "2003-11-04T03:17:19Z")
Thanks for the cite neutron star. While the link defeats my initial thesis that Paterno should still rank above Bowden in career division 1 wins, it supports my ancillary thesis that the NCAA’s bureaucracy is solely comprised of twits and knuckleheads. ---
**Author:** ![if6was9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@if6was9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/if6was9)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/13 "2003-11-04T03:24:21Z")
Bobby Bowden couldn’t hold Joe Pa’s jock strap! Period! ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/14 "2003-11-05T20:19:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Is there really that big of a difference? Was FSU the football powerhouse it is now when Bowden took over? Was Samford a Division I-A team back then? I have no idea. But if they were a Division 1-A school, they should count in the tally of “Division 1-A wins”. If they weren’t, then they shouldn’t. I assumed they were, since that’s what the sportswriters have been reporting. > [@](#): > > Can teams move from I-AA to I-A and vice versa I think teams can move from one division level to another. I thought I heard recently that FAMU (another school here in Tallahassee) was going to be moving to Division 1-A soon. (They currently aren’t, but that doesn’t stop teams like the UF Gators from putting them on their schedule for an easy win! ;)) ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bobby-bowdens-still-behind-jo-pa/211014/15 "2003-11-05T23:55:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by if6was9 \* > \*\*Bobby Bowden couldn’t hold Joe Pa’s jock strap! Period! \*\* Not without tweezers and a gas-mask! 😃 * * * She told me she loved me like a brother. She was from Arkansas, hence the Joy!