# BODY ARMOR:We are STILL dicking around. Repug incompetence kills **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 7, 2006, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860 "2006-01-07T06:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/21 "2006-01-08T04:22:31Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Bull. Fucking. Shit. > > Cheap appeals to emotion and straw man arguments don’t do shit against the overwhelming incompentancy of the military and this administration. March 2003 the military’s medical examiner says the information about soldier’s deaths in Iraq “screams to be published.” It takes the Marine Corps five fucking months after that statement to request the study. If thats not bad enough even when they request it the study isn’t done for another four months. Want to know why? Becuase they couldn’t find a measely 100,000 dollars to pay for it. One hundred fucking thousand dollars. > > So they finally get around their sheer incompetence to finally get a study done on how Marines were dying and what they could do to stop it. What they found suggests that 300 American Soldiers that died in the war could have been saved by increased body armor. Thats fifteen fucking percent of the casualities. Thats just from body armor. Body armor that the troops know they need becuase they have been buying it for themselves and using crotch protectors as an ad hoc substitute. What about all the vehicles that still aren’t armored? How many deaths could have been prevented from that armor? Its nothing but from sheer incompetence in this administration that the greatest industrial nation in the world still hasn’t managed to armor some fucking Hum-Vees after 2 years. I must say the capacity for disingenuity manifested by our repugnant dopers is astonishing. I really thought that the 107,000 dollar excuse was so over the top that no one could miss the metacommunication from the brass: “grunts, you are lower than dogshit–we care so little about your welfare we won’t even spend pocket change to further an armor program” Don’t you repug morons see that however the "tradeoffs"are to be managed, a multi-year slowdown was imposed because in the midst of a THREE HUNDRED BILLION DOLLAR WAR there was a problem having one branch of the government promise to pay another branch (whatever the fuck THAT means) $107,000, or , in clearer terms, 3.3 x 10 to the minus 5 percent of the war total.) Stop blowing smoke up our asses with the tradeoff bullshit. The pentagon didn’teven bother to inform itself about the parameters to be traded, you assholes. (gee, I kind of like it here in the pit–I should visit more often.) ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/22 "2006-01-08T04:26:16Z")
Are y’all really surprised by the responses to this OP? The republicans on this board don’t care about casualties or deaths. Well, I should say the right wing idiots on this board. The republican administration can do no wrong. If the troops have no armor so be it! It wasn’t in the 6 billion dollars a month budget. Maybe next year. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/23 "2006-01-08T04:40:57Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > … two drinks before you started this thread. You do better after 2 each. Please. I am a stoner, not a juicer… I myself thought the tenor of the op sufficiently restrained for GD, but perhaps BrotherBuckner has a quick trigger finger, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/24 "2006-01-08T04:54:02Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > I myself thought the tenor of the op sufficiently restrained for GD, but perhaps BrotherBuckner has a quick trigger finger, as it were. Hint: Any OP that contains more than one instance of all-caps followed by multiple exclamation points is probably not sufficiently restrained for GD. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/25 "2006-01-08T05:12:59Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Hint: Any OP that contains more than one instance of all-caps followed by multiple exclamation points is probably not sufficiently restrained for GD. I shall be better informed and hence better guided in future. (I swear the caps button engages itself against my will…) ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/26 "2006-01-08T05:27:06Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Two things. First off I should have mentioned that for whatever reason the network I’m on blocks The New York Times web site (but interestingly enough the filter lets this message board through…gods know what fucked up filtering they are using). So, if all is answered in the linked article my appologies…I won’t be able to read it until tonight in my hotel room (which is unfiltered). > > Secondly…calm down, ehe? 😛 > > -XT Well, reductio my cheap ass ab absurdum. Step outside your hotel, and BUY a fucking paper, you moron. you sniveling piece of shit, how dare you post without reading the underlying article,and then go into your patented “maybe it’s this maybe it’s that routine.”? Why waste your time posting without reading. More to the point, ASSHOLE, why waste ours? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/27 "2006-01-08T05:38:16Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > Are y’all really surprised by the responses to this OP? The republicans on this board don’t care about casualties or deaths. Well, I should say the right wing idiots on this board. The republican administration can do no wrong. If the troops have no armor so be it! > > It wasn’t in the 6 billion dollars a month budget. > > Maybe next year. What cracks me up is how SHAMELESS the pentagon is.I mean, you have guys scrounging in dumps in Iraq, you have families scraping together the thousands of dollars that the good stuff costs (funny, you can buy that on the open market if you have the bucks…no procurement problem here. It’s a triumph of free market capitalism…I think…) You’ld think the first time some mother sold her ass on hollywood blvd to buy armor for her marine son the problem would get solved, but oh no. Let mommy sell that cuchi, if she wants sonny home in one piece… ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/28 "2006-01-08T05:52:32Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Is there a rational reason why the 'Republican’s have blocked purchasing of this armor (assuming they have)…or is it just because they are evil? Not evil. Bored. The bureaucracy dragged its feet on this issue. Top brass (and their civilian Commanders) could have intervened, but I see little evidence that they tried. There’s a pattern here: strategy is fun while implementation is dull. Rumsfeld, Bush and Wolfowitz are visionaries, not detail-men. Unfortunately, when the wonks point out the need for post-invasion planning or better armor for troops and trucks or expedited training of the Iraqi army – all necessary components of a successful counter-insurgency program – they are met with limited enthusiasm and follow-up. ## Indeed, in the case of post-invasion planning there was active high-level sabotage, since it was believed that such studies could undermine the case for war. BTW: Props to the website [Soldiers for the Truth](http://www.sftt.org/main.cfm) for breaking this story. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/29 "2006-01-08T06:03:21Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Indeed, in the case of post-invasion planning there was active high-level sabotage, since it was believed that such studies could undermine the case for war. I think this is the fundamental problem here. This administration did not expect a long drawn out occupation and did not plan for it. Even as it became more and more apparent that we were in for a multi-year occupation with frequent attacks on troops this administration did not respond to that. We went to war in what mid-2003? You’re (not you Measure) telling me that the most industrialized nation in the world couldn’t armor some freaking trucks and procured some armor in two and a half years? After a few months it was clear that we were in for a pretty long occupation. If Bush had said “we need to armor these Hum-Vees and get the troops body armor now, do whatever you have to do but get it done now” that the hum-vees couldn’t have been armored and body armor given to the troops in 6 months? I don’t buy it for a second. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/30 "2006-01-08T06:19:04Z")
> [@treis](#): > > We went to war in what mid-2003? You’re (not you Measure) telling me that the most industrialized nation in the world couldn’t armor some freaking trucks and procured some armor in two and a half years? After a few months it was clear that we were in for a pretty long occupation. If Bush had said “we need to armor these Hum-Vees and get the troops body armor now, do whatever you have to do but get it done now” that the hum-vees couldn’t have been armored and body armor given to the troops in 6 months? I don’t buy it for a second. Let’s take a look at what happens, courtesy of the NYT article. Example: There’s a new vehicle in the works called the Cougar, whose V-shaped hull helps deflect roadside bombs. Alas, production is behind schedule. Who is building it? The Pentagon awarded the contract to a small company in South Carolina named Force Protection. The company’s prototypes have been recalled from Iraq due to faulty transmissions. Steel has been miscut. Several managers have resigned. The company is being sued for falsifying records to cover up defective workmanship. This is the first vehicle that Force Protection has ever mass-produced. Ever. So I guess some teething problems are understandable. Sheesh. This is like a B-grade movie. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/31 "2006-01-09T06:10:31Z")
As it is many soldiers are taking matters into their own hands. [A NYC mother gave her son $3000 body armor for XMAS](http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20060108-20525700-bc-us-bodyarmor.xml). She will be reimbursed for $1100 by the IRS. [The Pentagon dragged its feet for a year on this reimbursement program](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/09/29/national/w013219D33.DTL). Defence officials didn’t like the idea of adding such an open-ended financial commitment to their budget, apparently. Senator Dodd (D) of Connecticut begged to differ. More background. [http://www.airforcetimes.com/print.php?f=1-292925-1157923.php](http://www.airforcetimes.com/print.php?f=1-292925-1157923.php) Still, the partial reimbursement program is not as generous as Senator Dodd would have liked: it will not cover gun scopes or Humvee protection for example. * * * Those wishing to better equip US Military snipers in the field may wish to visit this site: [http://americansnipers.org/donate.html](http://americansnipers.org/donate.html) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/32 "2006-01-09T12:28:32Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Not evil. Bored. > > The bureaucracy dragged its feet on this issue. Top brass (and their civilian Commanders) could have intervened, but I see little evidence that they tried. > > There’s a pattern here: strategy is fun while implementation is dull. Rumsfeld, Bush and Wolfowitz are visionaries, not detail-men. Unfortunately, when the wonks point out the need for post-invasion planning or better armor for troops and trucks or expedited training of the Iraqi army – all necessary components of a successful counter-insurgency program – they are met with limited enthusiasm and follow-up. This is obviously true of the military, but was just as true of apparently any phase of this fucked up operation. Just remember, we picked resumes of 20 somethings off the Heritage Foundation website to run the CPA. I’ve stopped wondering what it will take for the apologists to stop being apologists. My feeling now is fuck them and move on. They are worthless and will never stop apologizing, no matter what. The only time they will stop apologizing for Bush is when there is another Republican president. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/33 "2006-01-09T14:37:17Z")
The mind-set of the Bush apologists here seems to be: Only conservatives are capable of understanding anything about the military Any questioning of anything military is by definition unpatriotic and not “supporting the troops” Military service counts for plenty, except when you look at Bush being AWOL or Cheney’s endless student deferments 9/11 changed anything Having any intelligent discourse with any Bush apologist about any military matter is not possible. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/34 "2006-01-09T15:26:29Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If Bush had said “we need to armor these Hum-Vees and get the troops body armor now, do whatever you have to do but get it done now” that the hum-vees couldn’t have been armored and body armor given to the troops in 6 months? I don’t buy it for a second. I can’t speak for body armor, but I can say that the company doing the Hum-Vee armor probably wasn’t even at full capacity by six months. Composite tooling tends to be a fairly slow process, in my experience, even when it’s important. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/35 "2006-01-09T16:29:40Z")
This is what real war planning looks like: > [@FDR](#): > > I have just sent a letter of directive to the appropriate departments and agencies of our Government, ordering that immediate steps be taken: > > First, to increase our production rate of airplanes so rapidly that in this year, 1942, we shall produce 60,000 planes, 10,000 more than the goal that we set a year and a half ago. This includes 45,000 combat planes–bombers, dive bombers, pursuit planes. The rate of increase will be maintained and continued so that next year, 1943, we shall produce 125,000 airplanes, including 100,000 combat planes. This is what America could do in the 1940s. Surely it can put through the odd $107k report, or build a few score combat vehicles in the 2000s. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/36 "2006-01-09T19:10:53Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > This is the epitome of the Republican response to this whole situation in Iraq. You might have a legitimate bitch if you can demonstrate that the military had effective body armor in, say, Sarajevo or Somalia, and that the Republican Congress has since cut the funding for it. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/37 "2006-01-09T19:22:01Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > REPUBLICANS!! > > As you are fond of saying, > > YOU WON!! > > You won the White House. You hold both houses. > > What is your major malfunction? As for you, my bombastic friend, I don’t really see how that NYT story you gave us shows that any of this can be laid at the feet of the Republican Party, or the Whitehouse, or Congress. Looks to me like a procurement issue wholly contained in the Pentagon. Procurement issues in the Pentagon aren’t something new; people - on both sides of the aisle, as well as the non-partisian CBO and GAO - have been pointing to problems with Pentagon procurement procedures for as long as military procurement has been centralized. And I’m very certain that if the Whitehouse had ordered the Pentagon to circumvent its established procurement procedures to expedite acquisition of body armor, you and your ilk would be screaming about that, too. So, what the fuck, Chicken Little? Pretty easy to cry wolf; not so much so to actually shoot the big bad fucker, eh? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/38 "2006-01-09T19:26:48Z")
You might also read the related story attached in the sidebar of your NYT article. [It says](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/07/international/middleeast/07armor.html?ex=1136955600&en=de57c720e54b7068&ei=5070): > [@](#): > > The war in Iraq was hardly a month old in April 2003 when an Army general in charge of equipping soldiers with protective gear threw the brakes on buying bulletproof vests. > > The general, Richard A. Cody, who led a Pentagon group called the Army Strategic Planning Board, had been told by supply chiefs that the combat troops already had all the armor they needed, according to Army officials and records from the board’s meetings. Some 50,000 other American soldiers, who were not on the front lines of battle, could do without. Again, this points to a problem with Pentagon procurement, not something the Republicans (or Democrats, or the Whitehouse, or Congress, or the fucking bullet fairy) are stalling. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/39 "2006-01-09T20:07:43Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > This is what real war planning looks like: > This is what America could do in the 1940s. Surely it can put through the odd $107k report, or build a few score combat vehicles in the 2000s. Unofrtunately, not exactly. We could build hundreds of liberty ships and thousands of tanks. But nowadays we demand infintely more from each supplier and from each item. It must be vetted by insane numbers of bureaucrats, many of whom have little relevant experience or knowledge. There are vast numbers of technical reports, financial analyses, and other documents to be created and filed. In short, the Pentagon is a what it is: a massive, opaque bureaucracy. Frankly, I’m amazed it does this _well_ at adapting. Moving money isn’t the issue. It’s simply that there’s so much information being transmitted so slowly. And of course, if anything’s not perfect, we fix it until it is. Witness the vihicle program mentioned above. If the Sherman tank had a flaw, soldiers dealt with it as best they could and moved on. They didn’t send it back. Now we do, because it’s politically unacceptable to have anything less than perfect. End result? Fewer goodies, higher costs. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/40 "2006-01-09T20:17:55Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > You might have a legitimate bitch if you can demonstrate that the military had effective body armor in, say, Sarajevo or Somalia, and that the Republican Congress has since cut the funding for it. I think you missed my point. I have a legitimate bitch if it is true that additional body armor would save lives and could be provided, and the counter argument is “But I was in the military and I didn’t get body armor.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860.md?page=3)