# BODY ARMOR:We are STILL dicking around. Repug incompetence kills **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 7, 2006, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860 "2006-01-07T06:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/61 "2006-01-10T15:56:23Z")
> [@](#): > > So for the people defending the Republicans here: Do they bear any responsibility? As I said, I’m not trying to defend the Republicans, or anyone else. But, yeah, the Republicans are complicit in this to the extent that during their control of Congress they have refused to enact legislation which would reform Pentagon (and lots of other federal department and agency) procurement regulations and practices. Exactly as the Democrats failed to do when they controlled the Congress. And if we wanna lay blame on the Executive branch/Whitehouse for not proposing legislation to Congress to do this, then there are several administrations which may share the blame equally. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/62 "2006-01-10T15:57:48Z")
> [@](#): > > You’ve missed the point by about a mile and a half. In regards to vehicles being armored we have known for at least a year now that we need to armor them. Remember the whole “you go to war with the army you have not the army you want” thing? Sure you might go to war with the arm you have but you also correct the deficiencies as soon as possible. Its inexcusable that vehicles over there still aren’t entirely armored. Actually, the whole up-armored Humvee thing was in the works and upgrades being made long before the media even knew there was a problem. The fact that it takes time is reality’s fault. > [@](#): > > by **light strand** > So for the people defending the Republicans here: Do they bear any responsibility? > > I think we can agree that Rumsfeld has a particularly close relationship with the President, and has very much been able to effect legislation. As Secretary of Defense is he responsible for insuring that our troops are properly equipped? In a perfect world? Yes. But that’s the point. There are about fifty bazillion layers of bureaucracy between the people in charge and the people below (including Rumsfeld in the “people in charge” category). Just finding out who’s actually doing the studies is a major irritant. And what’s anyone going to say, besides “can’t you hurry it up?” Sure, you could demand results tommorow. Then what happens if the results aren’t perfect? Huge ciriticsm, huge scandal. So they did was they did: send a big shipment of parts and let the soldiers do what wanted with 'em, while the brass worked (slowly) through the process of making new gear. Think about it this way: slapping some new plates is alright from a soldier’s perspective. It’s not from the brass. They want it all integrated into a new design, so they don’t have to sorry about something breaking as much. That neccessitates a new design. They make make dozens of new designs, each of which must be tested for strength and fit, field-tested to determine where it stands on comfort and weight. Then, after all of that is done (which may take months or _years_), they have to try and decide where the optimal balance is. If they increase the weight, will soldiers even wear it? Shoudl they back off and have new design or testing phases? What do the soldiers want? What if they disagree on what they want? Should we have more than one design? Now say that you’re basically the executive. You want something _yesterday_. Your underlings come and present all these problems and concerns. What do you do? Tell them to simply “make it happen” and cross your fingers? ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/63 "2006-01-10T16:13:29Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Think about it this way: slapping some new plates is alright from a soldier’s perspective. It’s not from the brass. They want it all integrated into a new design, so they don’t have to sorry about something breaking as much. That neccessitates a new design. They make make dozens of new designs, each of which must be tested for strength and fit, field-tested to determine where it stands on comfort and weight. Then, after all of that is done (which may take months or _years_), they have to try and decide where the optimal balance is. If they increase the weight, will soldiers even wear it? Shoudl they back off and have new design or testing phases? What do the soldiers want? What if they disagree on what they want? Should we have more than one design? Wow that’s a whole lot of excuses you’ve laid out there. _Very impressive_! Now to have you enter a bit of reality here. You see it’s not a question of _what_ body armor wold have saved the Marines in the study. They already know [that](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/07/politics/07armor.html). From the link: > [@](#): > > A secret Pentagon study has found that as many as 80 percent of the marines who have been killed in Iraq from wounds to the upper body could have survived if they had had extra body armor. Such armor has been available since 2003, but until recently the Pentagon has largely declined to supply it to troops despite calls from the field for additional protection, according to military officials. > > snip > > The vulnerability of the military’s body armor has been known since the start of the war, and is part of a series of problems that have surrounded the protection of American troops. Still, the Marine Corps did not begin buying additional plates to cover the sides of their troops until September, when it ordered 28,800 sets, Marine officials acknowledge. > > snip > > Military officials and contractors said the Pentagon’s procurement troubles had stemmed in part from miscalculations that underestimated the strength of the insurgency, and from years of cost-cutting that left some armoring companies on the brink of collapse as they waited for new orders. How is this not an oversight of the Defense Department, which should be laid at the feet of Rumsfeld, and by extension, Bush? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/64 "2006-01-10T16:37:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Wow that’s a whole lot of excuses you’ve laid out there. Very impressive! Now to have you enter a bit of reality here. Except that’s not just of load of excuses and buck-passing. That’s how the Pentagon procurement process is implemented. Take a peer at FAR sometime. And then consider that FAR doesn’t include whole giant blocks of regulations that the Defense Department invokes. For those you need to look at DFARS. Enjoy! [http://dcarc.pae.osd.mil/](http://dcarc.pae.osd.mil/) ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/65 "2006-01-10T16:53:08Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Except that’s not just of load of excuses and buck-passing. That’s how the Pentagon procurement process is implemented. Take a peer at FAR sometime. And then consider that FAR doesn’t include whole giant blocks of regulations that the Defense Department invokes. For those you need to look at DFARS. > > Enjoy! > [http://dcarc.pae.osd.mil/](http://dcarc.pae.osd.mil/) I know full well how the DoD works. My Husband, in addition to being a Marine Reservist, happens to work for Raytheon. In other words, I’ve seen him just through some pretty impressive, and time-consuming hoops, only to have the DoD say, “No, that’s not _exactly_ what we’re looking for”. But that is not the issue here. The design is set, the order has been placed. The question is, Why did it take three years, one study, and potentially hundreds of lives? Do you guys read this stuff, or do you just defensively react? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/66 "2006-01-10T17:30:38Z")
> [@light strand](#): > > But that is not the issue here. The design is set, the order has been placed. The question is, Why did it take three years, one study, and potentially hundreds of lives? For the reasons you gave in the final two paragraphs of the quote in your previous post. You ask if I read this stuff; the same charge might very well be leveled at you. Except you should be reading _own_ damned material. You can argue that what happened is unacceptable; I won’t make any noise at all about that. I would substantially agree with you even. However, laying blame at Bush’s feet for a problem that’s systemic, emblematic and pervasive seems inappropriate. You guys expect Bush to have a solution for everything, and to have it immediately upon discovery of a problem. I’m just afraid that’s not humanly possible given the Leviathan nature of our bloated federal government. Besides that, you folks all agree (and I again, I do to substantially) that Bush is an idiot and beholden to his corporate masters. You really want an idiot beholden to the military-corporate complex proposing and approving solutions to intricate problems? Me, I’d rather have the fool sit on his hands and do nothing. If he really is such a fool, his meddling is only likely to make things worse. Particularly so, if Bush is, as many folks claim, just a shill for a bunch of corporate monkeys with an interest vested only in their stock prices. Furthermore, Pentagon procurement **does not end** with placement of the order. There is all manner of testing that cannot be undertaken by the supplier until the actual units of whatever have been manufactured. Congress has for a very long time known (and had the authority) to modify the Pentagon procurement process. They have failed utterly to do so - for at least 40 years - despite several reports and recommendations from the GAO and CBO. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/67 "2006-01-10T18:00:13Z")
How come Dumb George is Commander in Chief with power virtually over life and death (he can remit the ciriminal liabilityof a cia interrogator who commits murder…) when it comes to trompling our civil liberties, but when it comes to procurement, well, shit, it’s someone WAAAY down the food chain who is fucking up, and how can we POSSIBLY lay the blame at George for DEAD FUCKING SOLDIERS. “Oh Captain, my Captain” indeed… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/68 "2006-01-10T18:05:00Z")
consistent with his NSA posture, Bush could have condemned the factory that made the armor, taken it over, and tripled production the following week. By the time the youngstown sheet and tube decision echoed through the fog, hundreds of soldiers would have been saved… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/69 "2006-01-10T18:07:05Z")
but he just doesn’t give a shit. That’s the message that uncle seems to ignore. Let the cracker asshole take a week off from his arduous vacation schedule and work the phones to Hunter and the subcommittee heads, let the networks film it and stream it live, while he bust some balls. You wanna bet the “logjams” will break? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/70 "2006-01-10T18:08:24Z")
think of Lyndon Johnson in the same situation. If he could get pants to fit his pecker (apparantly a challenging project…) he could get the armor. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/71 "2006-01-10T18:17:40Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > If procurement of body armor had been fast-tracked, and the product proved imperfect, you assholes would be screaming to the high heavens about cronyism and corruption in “BushCo.” Is this why “BushCo” didn’t fast track the armor? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/72 "2006-01-10T18:32:32Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Is this why “BushCo” didn’t fast track the armor? I blame an entrenched bureaucracy. Fucking military-industrial-governmental inertia. Sumthin’ twitchy ‘bout your trigger finger, Alaric? Or did you just see some Spartan’s needin’ killin? Or are you #2? > [@](#): > > How come Dumb George is Commander in Chief with power virtually over life and death (he can remit the ciriminal liabilityof a cia interrogator who commits murder…) when it comes to trompling our civil liberties, Dubya ain’t Commander in Chief when it comes to the rights of private citizens, so I ain’t exactly sure what you’re yammering about. I’m not sure I’d call Congress “way down the food chain” either. If it’s the so-called Patriot Act you’re going on about, Congress had a hand in that, you’ll remember. > [@](#): > > Bush could have condemned the factory that made the armor, taken it over, and tripled production the following week. I’m pretty sure there are laws against this. Unless you’re advocating that Bush ignore yet more of the duly constituted laws of this nation, your bluster is inane. The rest of what you stuttered out there is just incoherent babbling. Ya wanna try to explain it using commonly accepted idiom and structure? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/73 "2006-01-10T18:36:17Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > I blame an entrenched bureaucracy. Fucking military-industrial-governmental inertia. You’re telling me that the President himself couldn’t do something to get around the bureaucracy of the military? Well, its obvious this President can’t but theoretically one that wasn’t incompetent should be able to correct? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/74 "2006-01-10T18:40:30Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > I blame an entrenched bureaucracy. Fucking military-industrial-governmental inertia. > > Sumthin’ twitchy ‘bout your trigger finger, Alaric? Or did you just see some Spartan’s needin’ killin? Or are you #2? > Dubya ain’t Commander in Chief when it comes to the rights of private citizens, so I ain’t exactly sure what you’re yammering about. I’m not sure I’d call Congress “way down the food chain” either. If it’s the so-called Patriot Act you’re going on about, Congress had a hand in that, you’ll remember. > I’m pretty sure there are laws against this. Unless you’re advocating that Bush ignore yet more of the duly constituted laws of this nation, your bluster is inane.The rest of what you stuttered out there is just incoherent babbling. Ya wanna try to explain it using commonly accepted idiom and structure? sorry, I thought you knew who Duncan Hunter (house armed services chairman) was. The referenceto Youngstown sheet and tube is the law to which you refer blocking (maybe–this is a different “constitutional environment” than obtained when Truman threatened to take over the steel industrty, and it was a strike related situation where taft hartley gave him the authority he DIDN’T want to use, but that’s another thread…) There is no real doubt that within Bush’s definition of Cin C powers vis a vis the “gwot”, (let alone the real war in Iraq) he could condemn and take over the armor factory. whether I would endorse that as constitutional is irrelevant to the metacommunication of Bush’s failure to act. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/75 "2006-01-10T19:30:15Z")
to "stutter " further–the lyndon johnson reference is to the famous audiotapes of him talking tothe guy who owned Hagar slacks, and he’s explaining how he needs a little more room on the right side leg “where my pecker hangs down” (as he put it) ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/76 "2006-01-10T19:36:15Z")
.Apparently my reference to busting balls was not just a metaphor… [http://atrios.blogspot.com/2006\_01\_08\_atrios\_archive.html#113691460240694219](http://atrios.blogspot.com/2006_01_08_atrios_archive.html#113691460240694219) Or, as Torture Yoo put it, Bush can crush the testicles of children if he wants to. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/77 "2006-01-10T20:00:41Z")
> [@treis](#): > > You’re telling me that the President himself couldn’t do something to get around the bureaucracy of the military? Well, its obvious this President can’t but theoretically one that wasn’t incompetent should be able to correct? YES! Jesus, I wish you Bush bashers would be consistent in your arguments for once. When George Bush tries to reform the State Department bureaucracy in order to get the things that he thinks need to be done done, you’re all pissing and moaning about how he’s too stupid to be a diplomat, parading before us sacked flunkies who are mad because they don’t have the influence they used to (and damn me for forgetting that guy’s name right now), yet here you’re pissing and moaning because the military bureaucracy takes eons to work, and again this is somehow Bush’s fault for _not_ reforming the way things work. Which is it? Do we need to embrace the entrenched bureaucracy in government, or eliminate it? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/78 "2006-01-10T20:28:09Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > YES! Actually, NO! > [@](#): > > Jesus, I wish you Bush bashers would be consistent in your arguments for once. I wish you’d make an effort to understand what the criticism is about before you dismiss it. In this case, you’re confusing goals and methods and blaming others for your confusion. The criticism about Bush’s subjugation of the State Department, among others, is that it’s to make it tell him only what he wants to hear - NOT, as you ignorantly claim, to make it more effective, or efficient. The criticism about Bush’s subjugation of the Defense Department, among others, is that it’s to avoid doing anything that might cause him embarrassment, or effort. To that end, he’s avoided exerting any leadership to help our people from getting killed. And you’re \*defending \* him. Party before country as always for you, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > and damn me for forgetting that guy’s name right now It’s called Google. Use it. > [@](#): > > Which is it? Do we need to embrace the entrenched bureaucracy in government, or eliminate it? There are ways for the man at the top to make things happen if he wants to. Always. Every one of his predecessors has shown that. Is that one more thing that changed with 9/11? ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/79 "2006-01-10T20:31:05Z")
Oh yeah, well I’m tired of you Bush apologist fuckers claiming that nothing which goes wrong could possibly be set at the feet of your guy. In case your reading comprehension isn’t quite up to par, Republicans are in charge of\* everything\*. How could this not be their responsibility? If there’s a bloated bureaucracy, it’s your bureaucracy! You guys run it. You sure can smooth it out quickly when some crony from Halliburton wants an eleventy-billion dollar no-bid contract, but God forbid that some grunt get his new sparkly $4000.00 flack jacket. You need to get your head out of Bush’s ass, and breath some fresh air. Perhaps then your brain cells will become functional again, and you can have a reasonable, coherent discussion. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860/80 "2006-01-10T20:31:57Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > YES! Jesus, I wish you Bush bashers would be consistent in your arguments for once. When George Bush tries to reform the State Department bureaucracy in order to get the things that he thinks need to be done done, you’re all pissing and moaning about how he’s too stupid to be a diplomat, parading before us sacked flunkies who are mad because they don’t have the influence they used to (and damn me for forgetting that guy’s name right now), yet here you’re pissing and moaning because the military bureaucracy takes eons to work, and again this is somehow Bush’s fault for _not_ reforming the way things work. Which is it? Do we need to embrace the entrenched bureaucracy in government, or eliminate it? Gee, I don’t remember bashing Bush for anything in regard to the State Department. If Bush can’t do anything at all to effect the procurement of armor for the troops then he has failed as a president. Becuase if I were President this would have been a top priority and gotten done or heads would have rolled. What responsibilty exactly does Bush have for the Iraq war? All I see are excuses and blame placed elsewhere. What happened to “the buck stops here”? I don’t know why you guys keep on trying to paint this into simply another Bush bashing thread. There was nearly universal outrage when the story about the shortage of armored vehicles and I assume that there will be a similar outrage over this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-armor-we-are-still-dicking-around-repug-incompetence-kills/338860.md?page=5)