# Body parts/commodities are already being sold **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2000, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061 "2000-04-23T03:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/41 "2000-04-24T03:48:00Z")
**Lindsay** : Thank you for the cite on the Miami story, although I confess I was actually more interested in the L.A. Times story that you were contacted in regards to. * * * “In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes” - Thomas Jefferson, from a letter to Horatio Spafford, 1814. “the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, and Andrew Jackson] _not a one had professed a belief in Christianity_” - Reverend Bird Wilson, Sermon, 1831 ---
**Author:** ![Anti\_Pro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Anti\_Pro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anti_Pro)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/42 "2000-04-24T04:57:00Z")
## Lindsay, first I want to apologize, and not like the joking thing in the BBQ pit. I started a thread in another message board and got sent to the most horrific sounding article about this topic. URL=http://fathom.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000033.html]Donated organs/bodies started by Highlander. The OP contains a link to the Register series, which you can read for yourself. If you want a brief summary, here’s my best attempt: When a person dies, and NOK (next-of-kin) OK’s donation, often the NOK is thinking purely in terms of vital organ donation (lungs, heart, kidneys, livers, pancreatic islets which secrete insulin). These organs are made available to tissue banks at cost; their distribution and pricing are tightly regulated by the federal government. ## What many people do not realize is that much more of the body is harvested than just the internal organs. Skin, bone, corneas, and other parts may also be taken; these are sold, ostensibly at cost, but because these tissues are not so tightly regulated, “cost” often equates to whatever the highest bidder will pay. Thus skin goes to plastic surgeons for collagen injections to make lips look fuller or to enlarge penises, instead of to burn victims who may die due infections if enough skin for grafting cannot be found. It is a combination of the tremendous profits being made because of someone’s altruism, and the inequitable distribution, and the scanty information provided to families at the time of a loved one’s death that makes this practice so controvesial. ## I don’t know how to post links, Major Sue suggested maybe Holly might be willing to do it. Over in Fathoms in ‘Grand Forum’ “Highlander” started it from a newspaper article that he’d read. It is truly chilling. I had no idea this was really happening. I thought only major organs were being used, and for good cause. Not silly ones, like lip injections. \* Do you suppose the big lip people KNOW this?? \* Yuck! ‘Mr. Shields had challenged Mr. Lincoln to a duel, and that, as the challenged party, it was Mr. Lincoln’s right to choose the weapons. Mr. Lincoln responded, “How about cow-dung at five paces?”’ ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/43 "2000-04-24T05:54:00Z")
Try this: [Donated organs/bodies](http://fathom.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000033.html) * * * Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using The Force? - A. Foley ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/44 "2000-04-24T06:07:00Z")
This is another side of body parts/commodities being harvested without consent and for no earthly reason. [Children’s Hearts](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_650000/650888.stm) And comment from Cecil: [How Do They Decide?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_420.html) * * * Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using The Force? - A. Foley ---
**Author:** ![Holly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/48db29/32.png) [@Holly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Holly)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/45 "2000-04-24T07:47:00Z")
andros: > [@](#): > > Barring a living will, the family always has a say in when and whether to pull the plug. Often, the sooner it’s pulled, the better for potential organ recipients. Yes, the family can decide to pull the plug. However, if organ donation is the aim, you want to declare brain death but keep the body on life support. Therefore, the goal of the organ people is to convince the family NOT to pull the plug once brain death has been declared. lindsay: > [@](#): > > On another and final note, aren’t there some problems with assuming that everyone would be a donor, unless asked? > Aren’t there diseases that could be hidden, and could emerge later? I didn’t say the donors wouldn’t be screened. The testing would not change. The only difference would be that instead of assuming that people do not want to be donors, we would assume that people _do_ want to be donors. You state that donors’ families should be paid large amounts of cash, and that you would not donate unless your family received money. You also state that you’re afraid to stay in a hopital alone for fear of being slaughtered for your organs, and cite cases of people who have illegally and wrongly obtained organs without consent. Can you see that the more scarce and costly those organs are, the more likely there is to be a black market for them, and the more likely it is for someone to steal _your_ organs? ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/46 "2000-04-24T07:55:00Z")
Folks, I admit I am not the most experienced member her, but I’m no newbie either, I’ve looked at all these threads. Is this “Lindsay” for real? I smell a rat. She says her families “religous beliefs” were against organ donation: what religion is that? JC would NOT be proud… ---
**Author:** ![lindsay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3be4f8/32.png) [@lindsay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsay)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/47 "2000-04-24T12:09:00Z")
Mr. Vernet and Miss Vincent were said to be zombies and one belief is that the body and soul cannot rest if it is violated. I’ve read that Catholics are against organ donation. It was my husband’s wish to be left intact. I did not ask why. In my circle, there is a big taboo on eye donations. i have no idea where this got started. The name of the lawsuit is Vernet and Vincent vs the University of Miami. CourtTV broadcast it in 1998. It is listed in their archives and is available on video. I would refuse an organ transplant. First, my body forms heavy scar tissue. This causes pain at times. Next there are the drugs to take to prevent rejection of said organ. However, if my loved ones need a body part I can do without I am willing to be a Living Donor. If my family wishes to auction off my body parts after I am dead, so what? I would approve. Geesh, George Carlin wrote that people should get two free kills a year as long as you don’t kill your kids, because if they are assholes someone else will kill them. I write that I have some ill will toward the neighborhood creep, and now I am worse than the fellow who buried his puppies alive. * * * lindsay ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/48 "2000-04-24T12:32:00Z")
FWIW, I don’t think **Lindsay** is a “rat” or “not for real”. I think she just wants a place to vent her anger on the subject of organ donation. She has also posted to every other thread on the subject, including one very old one from December. ## **Anti Pro,** your link would have been fine except that you left off the front bracket. Keep trying! 🙂 Practice makes perfect–that’s what all those “test” posts in ATMB are for. Use one of those. “Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen ---
**Author:** ![lindsay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3be4f8/32.png) [@lindsay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsay)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/49 "2000-04-24T12:35:00Z")
No, I don’t think paying donors for organs would cause any problems. There are so few organs available, for whatever reason people are not willing to donate. In Egypt, Japan, Turkey, Brazil and other countries selling organs is legal. As the problem seems to be too few willing to donate, and all the appeals to sign a donor card have fallen flat, there surely must be another way to obtain organs. Actually I think that in the next five years, organs will be cloned, and that ought to end the shortage. I’ve never heard of this Hiatan religion known as Zombies but that is what CourtTV reported Mr. Vermet and Miss Vincent as believing. I also have trouble believing there is a shortage of blood. In an older issue of Consumer Reports was an article about Brand name Blood. Don’t remember the specifics, just parts but I do remember the banner showing a patient and the slogan ‘ask your doctor for it by name.’ That seems awfully excessive. It is also a lot more expensive than regular blood. Don’t you just love it, designer blood? Cloned body parts must be being developed now. * * * lindsay ---
**Author:** ![lindsay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3be4f8/32.png) [@lindsay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsay)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/50 "2000-04-24T12:42:00Z")
What is FWIW? And what does OP refer to? * * * lindsay ---
**Author:** ![lindsay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3be4f8/32.png) [@lindsay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsay)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/51 "2000-04-24T12:51:00Z")
Anti Pro: Is the URL you cited related to a story about body parts being sold to whoever could afford the fees? There is a story in Thursday’s paper about that, the director of one place said something to the tune of ‘well, yeah, we’d like to give them to burn victims but money talks.’ * * * lindsay ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/52 "2000-04-24T16:16:00Z")
I don’t want to get in this fight–I find the notion of selling body parts to be beyond comment, personally–but I couldn’t let this go by. > [@](#): > > Surely you wouldn’t want to receive an organ and later find out that the donor had something like Huntington’s Chorea? Or had had Human Growth Hormone injections and you would then be in danger of contracting CJD? Huntington’s chorea is an inherited disorder that affects certain parts of the brain. Unless you were actually transplanting the brain, I can’t imagine how a transplant from someone with yet-asymptomatic Huntington’s could possibly cause the disease in the recipient. (Maybe someone knows something I don’t, but I’d have to see it in a pretty good journal before I’d buy it.) CJD (that’s Creutzfeld-Jacob Disease, BTW; remember that “X-Files” episode about the chicken plant?) is, to use the proper medical term, really freakin’ rare. Anyone getting any sort of transplant has such a slew of complications to worry about, prion disease shouldn’t even be on the list. Dr. J * * * “Seriously, baby, I can prescribe anything I want!” -Dr. Nick Riviera ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/53 "2000-04-24T16:33:00Z")
LINDSAY > [@](#): > > Want my organs? If they are in good condition be willing to pony up $100,000.00 for a kidney and lots more for the heart. I have carefully read all of your posts in this thread and the one in the Pit, and my only comment is that I cannot image that anyone would ever want your heart. * * * Jodi _Fiat Justitia_ ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/54 "2000-04-24T18:07:00Z")
Despite my opposition to selling organs, it might not be too bad, on the evening of a crazy party, to run down to the corner maket for a six-pack of livers… 🙂 * * * “One more anal-probing, gyro, pyro, levitating, eco-plasm, alien anti-matter story and I’m gonna take out my gun and shoot somebody.” – Fox Mulder ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/55 "2000-04-24T22:17:00Z")
> [@](#): > > originally posted by Lindsay: (italics mine) > What I was thinking of was a letter I read, wherein the author says that the Main Player, the Donor, is the one without whom no life gets saved, with a transplant new life is given, physicians and hospitals get fat fees, but the most essential person gets nothing. > He was referring to Donna Shalala’s attempt to take over this monopoly on commodities/organs. He also states that thousands die each year because potential donors are not motivated to give organs to strangers or to abstract organisations. He suggests paying donors as a way to make more organs available. > I think it is worth considering. > > Selfish for wanting money for my body parts? Sure, so what > > About Donna Shalala I couldn’t be angry about whatever she is attempting, _since I don’t know what it is._ From the brief article it looks like she wants organs to go the sickect first, instead of the current system where the patients in any given area have ‘first claim’ on organs donated within the region. > > Actually I think that in the next five years, organs will be cloned, and that ought to end the shortage. > > I’ve never heard of this Hiatan religion known as Zombies but that is what CourtTV reported Mr. Vermet and Miss Vincent as believing. > > I also have trouble believing there is a shortage of blood. In an older issue of Consumer Reports was an article about Brand name Blood. Don’t remember the specifics, just parts but I do remember the banner showing a patient and the slogan ‘ask your doctor for it by name.’ > > Cloned body parts must be being developed now. > > What is FWIW? > And what does OP refer to? Okay, tempers are running a little hot here. I think we all need to pause and realize that we’re not dealing with someone who sincerely wants to debate whether human organs and tissue should be bought and sold. I think **Lindsay** just wants a forum to vent her feelings and prejudices, not to mention some rather odd ideas about Donna Shalala and cloning. That’s fine by me, it’s a free country and a free message board, but I see some very nice posters getting all hot under the collar for nothin’. Chill, dudes, it won’t last. **Lindsay,** if you would take the time to read other threads and get to know the Straight Dope Message Board a little before you fire off your big guns on the subject of organ donation, you would find that the “OP” means both the “Original Post”, i.e. what you said that started this thread, and also the “Original Poster”, which is you. “FWIW” means For What It’s Worth. I’m too annoyed to feel like giving you a list of all the other abbreviations that the rest of us use routinely, because I don’t feel like you particularly care to learn it. I think you just want to sound off. Well, OK, fine. Go ahead and air your prejudices and half-remembered factoids and weird ideas about Donna Shalala. BTW, the _Consumer Reports_ ad was intended as a joke, Lindsay, as a sharp reminder to people that there is, in fact, a blood shortage. I don’t know what to do about someone who has never heard of zombies. Neither do I know what to do about someone who believes that “they” are cloning body parts. If anybody else is seriously interested in organ donation, here’s the official .gov website, which has loads of links. [http://www.organdonor.gov/faq.html](http://www.organdonor.gov/faq.html) FWIW, [The National Organ Transplant Act](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d098:SN02048:@@@L%7CTOM:/bss/d098query.html) is what makes it illegal to sell human organs and tissues in the United States. Here are a series of press releases concerning Donna Shalala and various organ donation initiatives. I don’t really understand Lindsay’s “demonization” of Ms. Shalala, but then I don’t understand the Flat Earthers, either. I don’t see anything wrong with “wanting organs to go to the sickest first.” [http://www.hrsa.dhhs.gov/news-pa/odi.htm](http://www.hrsa.dhhs.gov/news-pa/odi.htm) > [@](#): > > Clinton Administration Launches > National Organ and Tissue Donation Initiative > Saying that rapid and substantial increases can be made in organ donation and transplantation, Vice President Al Gore and HHS Secretary Donna E. Shalala today launched a National Organ and Tissue Donation Initiative aimed at reducing the number of Americans who die each year while waiting for an organ transplant… [http://www.aafp.org/news/971215nr.html](http://www.aafp.org/news/971215nr.html) > [@](#): > > AAFP Joins with HHS Secretary Shalala to Increase Organ Donation Efforts > (Kansas City, MO) The American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP) today congratulated HHS Secretary Donna E. Shalala on the launch of a National Organ and Tissue Donation Initiative aimed at lowering the number of Americans who die each year while waiting for an organ transplant… [http://www.hrsa.dhhs.gov/newsroom/NewsBriefs/1999/OPTNrule.htm](http://www.hrsa.dhhs.gov/newsroom/NewsBriefs/1999/OPTNrule.htm) > [@](#): > > Shalala Announces Amended Organ Procurement and > Transplantation Network Final Rule > Health and Human Services Secretary Donna E. Shalala today announced the issuance of an amended Organ Procurement and Transplantation Network (OPTN) Final Rule. The new rule, available for viewing at the Office of the Federal Register, incorporates significant changes recommended by Congress; a recent Congressionally-mandated Institute of Medicine study; and transplant physicians, surgeons, and patient and donor representatives… [http://www.hhs.gov/progorg/asl/testify/t980618a.txt](http://www.hhs.gov/progorg/asl/testify/t980618a.txt) > [@](#): > > 1998/6/18; Secretarial Testimony; Organ Donation Allocation STATEMENT OF SECRETARY DONNA E. SHALALA U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES BEFORE SENATE LABOR AND HUMAN RESOURCES COMMITTEE HOUSE COMMERCE COMMITTEE JUNE 18, 1998… This is a collection of media releases. [http://www.unos.org/Newsroom/archive\_newsrelease\_043098\_mediacoverage.htm](http://www.unos.org/Newsroom/archive_newsrelease_043098_mediacoverage.htm) > [@](#): > > Media Coverage of OPTN Regulations by Localities > This collection of various print articles through the week of April 6-10, 1998, is intended to show the various views and issues advanced in different localities in the media relating to the publication of OPTN regulations. It is not a complete summary of coverage… Okay, so **Lindsay** seems to think that she ought to be paid for donating her organs. Does anybody want to debate her on that, to say, “No, you should not be paid for donating your organs”? This is supposed to be Great Debates, after all. Let’s have a little less heat and more light. Should the National Organ Transplant Act be repealed? If so, why? I think not. I believe that the Act is a good idea. Otherwise, you will have organs being bought and sold, which, I would like to point out, _not actually happening yet in the United States._ If anyone says otherwise, I would like to see some cites, please, and stuff from Snopes’ Inboxer Rebellion doesn’t count (no “they stole my kidney” stories, please! 😃 ) There, now maybe we can have a debate. Sheesh. :rolleyes: * * * “Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2000, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/56 "2000-04-25T07:25:00Z")
Folks look back at one of Lindsays 1st posts; She states it was against HER family’s religous beliefs. She also can come up with nothing better than zombies. Is she a voodoo priestess or zombie lord? I still smell a rat. Lindsay: what are your family’s religous beliefs that prohibit organ donation? ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2000, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/57 "2000-04-25T09:37:00Z")
Well, she _did_ say that she could attend a black mass at midnight… * * * Those who are dancing look insane to those who cannot hear the music. * * * One-of-a-kind, custom-designed Wally sig available on request. ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2000, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/58 "2000-04-25T09:40:00Z")
Someone said that they had read that Catholics don’t believe in organ donation–is this true? None of the Catholics I have ever met feel this way. What would be their rationale? ---
**Author:** ![Holly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/48db29/32.png) [@Holly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Holly)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2000, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061/59 "2000-04-25T10:52:00Z")
I’ve known devout Catholic families who donated organs. I’ve not personally seen anyone decline to donate on religious grounds; usually it’s because the family is in too much shock to contemplate donation, or because of the “ickiness” factor. Most families never seriously think or talk about donation until a family member dies, which is the worst possible time to have to make that decision. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-parts-commodities-are-already-being-sold/18061.md?page=2)