# Body Signals and the Fall of Radical Islam **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 9, 2015, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015 "2015-10-09T11:36:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/201 "2015-10-19T15:48:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Do these signals work on falsifiable questions? > > Consider two issues: a complex math problem and whether to buy or lease your next car. We can know if you got th math problem right. There’s no way to know if buying or leasing your next car is better for you – it’s basically a matter of opinion. > > I’m sure you think these signals will help you decide on your car purchase. Can they help with the math problem? So you think God will do your math homework for you? I don’t think so. And I doubt He will sound off on whether to buy or lease a car. The signals aren’t for matters of preference or opinion. For instance, I can eat a piece of cake and say, “God? Is this cake good or evil?” See, it doesn’t work on that type of question. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/202 "2015-10-19T15:50:28Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > These questions are giving me a figurative headache. The worst, most painful signals to me are the rib cramps, which mean you are unwittingly following an evil spirit. Once your rib muscles contract between your ribs and stay that way until you change your path, you quickly learn to avoid Satan’s influence and repent! That’s the best example I can think of right now. So let me get this straight. Your god tortures you whenever you follow and evil spirit? You believe that god does this to everyone and yet there are clearly people still following evil spirits. So either god is not torturing them until they stop following the spirit or he only communicates to you this way. By the way how often do you follow evil spirits to draw this conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/203 "2015-10-19T16:08:02Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > It’s certainly worth an experiment. Give it a try - in fact, give it several tries; you want to build up a significant set of data points - and report back. Preliminary studies seem to indicate that somebody loves me, and wants me to be happy. ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/204 "2015-10-19T16:13:51Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > There’s a whole [book](http://www.amazon.com/Under-Banner-Heaven-Story-Violent/dp/1400032806) about various Mormons who take the promise of “personal revelation” very seriously. It does not end well for anyone involved. The Laffertys, Brian David Mitchell, John D Lee, and a dozen others. > > This “theory” of body signals is amusing for now, but I hope you’ll sober up before some combination of aches and itches convinces you that God commands you to harm someone. That book happens to be a biased anti-Mormon work (from what I’ve heard–I don’t waste my time reading dishonest, sensational polemic filth). All Mormons (actually, all mankind) are entitled to personal revelation, even us “liars” who make up stories about talking to our bishops. Personal revelation is nothing more or less than the Holy Ghost speaking in our hearts. Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, etc. all received personal revelation. If you’re going to accuse Mormons of the same, what about the story of Abraham and Isaac? God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son (Isaac). God only revealed that this command was just a test of Abraham’s obedience _after_ Abe proved that he was loyal. So if you’re going to accuse the Mormons of this sort of thing, just accuse all the People of the Book of the same. That’s the kind of hypocrisy and double standard that you’ll find if you read crap like UtBoH. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/205 "2015-10-19T16:20:54Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > **Left eye** = **Seeing Justice** as it relates to you > **Right eye** = **Seeing Mercy** as it relates to you > **Forehead / Headache / Fever** = **You’re deceived** > **Lips** = **Mulling over / repenting of your sins** > **Left back of neck** = **Evil judgment rendered** > **Right back of neck** = **Merciful / Good judgment rendered** > **Front of neck** = **You’re cut off from God’s presence** due to unrepented sin > **Pectorals / Breasts** = **Corruption** > **Stomach** = **You’ve “swallowed” / taken in an untruth** > **Hips** = **You haven’t thought an issue all the way through** > **Knees** = **evil intentions (left) / good intentions (right)** > **Big toes** = **Yes / True (right) | No / False (left)** I’m getting a strong [phrenology](http://thegraphicsfairy.com/wp-content/uploads/blogger/-RjkfxxTXY14/TgUKBaS6HTI/AAAAAAAANFY/iYbzzJvIv9A/s1600/goodhealthV2-paperrelics.jpg) vibe from this. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/206 "2015-10-19T16:29:40Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > That book happens to be a biased anti-Mormon work (from what I’ve heard–I don’t waste my time reading dishonest, sensational polemic filth). All Mormons (actually, all mankind) are entitled to personal revelation, even us “liars” who make up stories about talking to our bishops. Personal revelation is nothing more or less than the Holy Ghost speaking in our hearts. > > Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, etc. all received personal revelation. If you’re going to accuse Mormons of the same, what about the story of Abraham and Isaac? God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son (Isaac). God only revealed that this command was just a test of Abraham’s obedience _after_ Abe proved that he was loyal. > > So if you’re going to accuse the Mormons of this sort of thing, just accuse all the People of the Book of the same. That’s the kind of hypocrisy and double standard that you’ll find if you read crap like UtBoH. I almost listed Abraham among those who are willing to commit violence as of a result of “personal revelation”. The guy’s faith is so strong that he’s willing to perform a child sacrifice as a direct result of personal revelation. Believe it or not, some people today actually feel that such willingness to do harm to others is admirable. Your post above, for example, describes Abraham as obedient and loyal. Harming people as a result of personal revelation IS NOT OKAY, and your defense of Abraham makes me wonder whether you fully understand this concept. I’m sorry if I was unclear above. I’m not accusing Mormons of being violent. And in _Under The Banner of Heaven_, it’s not the mainstream Mormons who are violent; it’s the people who discover that they are receiving personal revelations. I am pointing out that personal revelation often tells very sincere believers of many faiths to commit horrific acts of violence. [If Krakauer is “anti-Mormon,”](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem) that doesn’t justify the actions of the Laffertys, Brian David Mitchell, John D Lee, and Abraham. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/207 "2015-10-19T16:35:53Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > For instance, I can eat a piece of cake and say, “God? Is this cake good or evil?” See, it doesn’t work on that type of question. Devil’s Food Cake is inherently evil, though, whilst Angel Food is the opposite. Sure you dint mean pie? ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/208 "2015-10-19T16:36:36Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > So let me get this straight. Your god tortures you whenever you follow and evil spirit? You believe that god does this to everyone and yet there are clearly people still following evil spirits. So either god is not torturing them until they stop following the spirit or he only communicates to you this way. The more you know, the greater God’s condemnation for your sins is. Most people don’t know enough to be severely punished for sins. My mother reports that she gets the side stitches sometimes, too, so it’s not just me. > [@](#): > > By the way how often do you follow evil spirits to draw this conclusion? Rarely–only when I’m deceived. The side stitches hurt too much. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/209 "2015-10-19T16:39:02Z")
**Rhodes** (paraphrasing): I hope your personal revelations will never tell you to harm someone. It never turns out well. **Snark Hunter** (paraphrasing): Look at Abraham. His personal revelation to commit child sacrifice turned out well. **Rhodes** (thinking): _shit_. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/210 "2015-10-19T16:42:43Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Devil’s Food Cake is inherently evil, though, whilst Angel Food is the opposite. > > Sure you dint mean pie? By definition, pie is not evil. ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/211 "2015-10-19T16:44:42Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > I almost listed Abraham among those who are willing to commit violence as of a result of “personal revelation”. The guy’s faith is so strong that he’s willing to perform a child sacrifice as a direct result of personal revelation. Believe it or not, some people today actually feel that such willingness to do harm to others is admirable. Your post above, for example, describes Abraham as obedient and loyal. Harming people as a result of personal revelation IS NOT OKAY, and your defense of Abraham makes me wonder whether you fully understand this concept. > > I’m sorry if I was unclear above. I’m not accusing Mormons of being violent. And in _Under The Banner of Heaven_, it’s not the mainstream Mormons who are violent; it’s the people who discover that they are receiving personal revelations. I am pointing out that personal revelation often tells very sincere believers of many faiths to commit horrific acts of violence. [If Krakauer is “anti-Mormon,”](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem) that doesn’t justify the actions of the Laffertys, Brian David Mitchell, John D Lee, and Abraham. I agree about the first three, but Abraham must have done something right, because he’s now a god. If God told me to kill someone, I wouldn’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/212 "2015-10-19T16:45:57Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > If God told me to kill someone, I wouldn’t do it. That’s a relief. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/213 "2015-10-19T17:00:51Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > I agree about the first three, but Abraham must have done something right, because he’s now a god. > > If God told me to kill someone, I wouldn’t do it. But what if you had an itchy trigger finger? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/214 "2015-10-19T17:16:26Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > So you think God will do your math homework for you? I don’t think so. And I doubt He will sound off on whether to buy or lease a car. The signals aren’t for matters of preference or opinion. For instance, I can eat a piece of cake and say, “God? Is this cake good or evil?” See, it doesn’t work on that type of question. Okay, so there is no way that these sensations can be falsified. No matter what the signals tells you, you have a circular argument that they help you make the right choice. You know that you chose correctly because the signals told you to, and you know the signals were correct because you chose to do something that was good. There’s no way to verify that you chose correctly, because “God won’t do your math homework for you,” or provide direction that would lead to an outcome that proves the decision was incorrect. In fact, if you did the exact opposite of what the signals told you, there would almost certainly be no impact on your life or decisions. That’s because I’m sure you aren’t wondering whether you should, say, murder a child or not, in which the tickling affirms that you shouldn’t. I can only imagine how you use this power or phenomena, but it can only be on pretty mundane stuff. That is, unless you bestow mundane issues with supernatural importance - like, telling Cathy in accounting to knock it off with all her noisy snacking in the afternoon gets elevated into a matter of doing the Lord’s work or submitting to the Devil. ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/215 "2015-10-19T17:52:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Okay, so there is no way that these sensations can be falsified. No matter what the signals tells you, you have a circular argument that they help you make the right choice. You know that you chose correctly because the signals told you to, and you know the signals were correct because you chose to do something that was good. There’s no way to verify that you chose correctly, because “God won’t do your math homework for you,” or provide direction that would lead to an outcome that proves the decision was incorrect. > > In fact, if you did the exact opposite of what the signals told you, there would almost certainly be no impact on your life or decisions. That’s because I’m sure you aren’t wondering whether you should, say, murder a child or not, in which the tickling affirms that you shouldn’t. I can only imagine how you use this power or phenomena, but it can only be on pretty mundane stuff. > > That is, unless you bestow mundane issues with supernatural importance - like, telling Cathy in accounting to knock it off with all her noisy snacking in the afternoon gets elevated into a matter of doing the Lord’s work or submitting to the Devil. Maybe I haven’t been clear: _The body signals are not meant to replace personal communication with or revelation from God. They are supplementary only. Without God telling me in my heart what they mean, I wouldn’t have a clue that they mean anything at all._ ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/216 "2015-10-19T18:09:51Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > So you think God will do your math homework for you? I don’t think so. And I doubt He will sound off on whether to buy or lease a car. The signals aren’t for matters of preference or opinion. For instance, I can eat a piece of cake and say, “God? Is this cake good or evil?” See, it doesn’t work on that type of question. Well you’re offering god a binary choice, but he might think the third option which is “so-so”. What if it’s a layer cake, and the top half is fluffy, light and angelic and the bottom part is full of sin and corruption ? God can’t reduce Himself to inadequate questions about the sweet trolley now, can He ? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/217 "2015-10-19T18:15:37Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > Maybe I haven’t been clear: _The body signals are not meant to replace personal communication with or revelation from God. They are supplementary only. Without God telling me in my heart what they mean, I wouldn’t have a clue that they mean anything at all._ I apologize – I have been reading this thread closely but I must have glossed over that explanation. Because that explaination of your views appears to be at odds with this statement you made: > [@](#): > > My target audience is the militant radical muslims, anyway; I’m trying to convince them to listen to Allah’s body signals and to stop justifying jihads. So you’re saying that militant Muslims need to listen to body signals, but those signals are not meant to replace communication with Allah in their hearts. So, does that mean that they have Allah in their hearts but they aren’t listening to him? Or is Allah telling them the wrong thing? If they are supposed to listen to their hearts, what relevance does being physically prodded by a higher being have to anything? ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/218 "2015-10-19T18:55:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I apologize – I have been reading this thread closely but I must have glossed over that explanation. Because that explaination of your views appears to be at odds with this statement you made: > > So you’re saying that militant Muslims need to listen to body signals, but those signals are not meant to replace communication with Allah in their hearts. Yes. Maybe this thread can be a catalyst for them, or a key or map of human spirituality. It’s admittedly a long shot. > [@](#): > > So, does that mean that they have Allah in their hearts but they aren’t listening to him? Or is Allah telling them the wrong thing? If they are supposed to listen to their hearts, what relevance does being physically prodded by a higher being have to anything? Anyone who commits the atrocities ISIS is committing can’t possibly be listening or submitting to Allah, IMO. Maybe the signals can lead them to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/219 "2015-10-19T19:05:06Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > Anyone who commits the atrocities ISIS is committing can’t possibly be listening or submitting to Allah, IMO. Maybe the signals can lead them to do so. Maybe the “signals” you get from God are meant for you only. Maybe God doesn’t send them the same body signals. Maybe he doesn’t have time. ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/220 "2015-10-19T19:20:09Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Maybe the “signals” you get from God are meant for you only. Could be. The medications I take give me “pseudo-Parkinson’s disease,” which produces weakness and tremors. > [@](#): > > Maybe God doesn’t send them the same body signals. I doubt it. > [@](#): > > Maybe he doesn’t have time. He exists outside of time; thus, He has time enough for all of us, and to spare. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015.md?page=12)