# Body Signals and the Fall of Radical Islam **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 9, 2015, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015 "2015-10-09T11:36:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/241 "2015-10-21T19:39:10Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > That’s your opinion, nothing more. You speak out of ignorance yourself. 🆒 No, it’s not opinion. You have not presented a testable hypothesis, let alone a theory. By the definitions that are commonly used you have discussed personal revelation. That’s fine by itself, I don’t think anyone here is against you witnessing about that. This forum is specifically for that sort of thing. But the fact is that there’s no way to reliably and repeatedly test what you have presented without relying on personal revelation. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. Describe a test that a neutral 3rd party can observe and verify to see if your claims are true and we’ll take it from there. ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/242 "2015-10-21T19:59:19Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > No, it’s not opinion. You have not presented a testable hypothesis, let alone a theory. By the definitions that are commonly used you have discussed personal revelation. That’s fine by itself, I don’t think anyone here is against you witnessing about that. This forum is specifically for that sort of thing. But the fact is that there’s no way to reliably and repeatedly test what you have presented without relying on personal revelation. I agree. It’s not a “Theory” in the scientific sense of the word. > [@](#): > > Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. Describe a test that a neutral 3rd party can observe and verify to see if your claims are true and we’ll take it from there. It doesn’t work that way, unless that third party can somehow jump inside your body and mind and monitor your thoughts, correlating each little itch with them. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/243 "2015-10-21T20:11:30Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > I agree. It’s not a “Theory” in the scientific sense of the word. > > It doesn’t work that way, unless that third party can somehow jump inside your body and mind and monitor your thoughts, correlating each little itch with them. Then you can appreciate that from an external point of view, if you told us that your dog is telepathically speaking to you and only you, we’d be understandably skeptical, right? But in your case, what makes us even more skeptical is that you have a dog only you can see. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/244 "2015-10-21T20:33:53Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > But in your case, what makes us even more skeptical is that you have a dog only you can see. And the dog speaks Klingon. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/245 "2015-10-21T21:33:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Then you can appreciate that from an external point of view, if you told us that your dog is telepathically speaking to you and only you, we’d be understandably skeptical, right? > > But in your case, what makes us even more skeptical is that you have a dog only you can see. > [@Telemark](#): > > And the dog speaks Klingon. 🙂 Klingon, with a German accent. ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/246 "2015-10-21T22:01:51Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Then you can appreciate that from an external point of view, if you told us that your dog is telepathically speaking to you and only you, we’d be understandably skeptical, right? Right. But there’s a price to pay in order to gain knowledge. You can’t expect to obtain an understanding of, say, advanced physics without a teacher and a textbook, can you? Not to mention being teachable and willing to admit that you don’t know everything. > [@](#): > > But in your case, what makes us even more skeptical is that you have a dog only you can see. Many great ideas have initially been ridiculed and rejected by the world, just because they were hard to prove. Example: Columbus believed the world is round, but until he proved it, conventional wisdom wouldn’t accept that. Seeing the “invisible dog” requires faith and an open mind. Since seeing this particular dog isn’t essential for salvation, that makes proving it a whole lot harder, although worthwhile IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/247 "2015-10-21T22:13:45Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > Right. But there’s a price to pay in order to gain knowledge. You can’t expect to obtain an understanding of, say, advanced physics without a teacher and a textbook, can you? Not to mention being teachable and willing to admit that you don’t know everything. > > Many great ideas have initially been ridiculed and rejected by the world, just because they were hard to prove. Example: Columbus believed the world is round, but until he proved it, conventional wisdom wouldn’t accept that. > > Seeing the “invisible dog” requires faith and an open mind. Since seeing this particular dog isn’t essential for salvation, that makes proving it a whole lot harder, although worthwhile IMHO. Is that right about Columbus? I thought any half-educated person knew the earth was round by then. Columbus’s innovation was thinking (incorrectly) that the earth was much smaller than the Greeks had calculated it to be, so he believed he’d have enough provisions to sail to India. Can a better historian back me up on this? And if the price to gain knowledge is that we have to take every absurd idea seriously, then that knowledge comes at far too great of a price. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/248 "2015-10-21T22:26:47Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > Is that right about Columbus? I thought any half-educated person knew the earth was round by then. Columbus’s innovation was thinking (incorrectly) that the earth was much smaller than the Greeks had calculated it to be, so he believed he’d have enough provisions to sail to India. Can a better historian back me up on this? That’s correct. It’s a popular myth that Columbus’s dispute with the experts regarded whether the Earth was round or not. All educated people knew that; and sailors knew it especially well, since they could observe that the tops of distant objects were visible much sooner than the lower parts. Columbus cherry-picked the data to calculate a much smaller distance to Asia than was commonly believed. The experts told him he was full of shit. They were right, and he was wrong. But Columbus was the luckiest crackpot in history, discovering something he wasn’t even looking for. > [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > Many great ideas have initially been ridiculed and rejected by the world, just because they were hard to prove. They were provable in principle, however. Your idea can’t even be tested, let alone proven. ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/249 "2015-10-21T23:46:00Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > They were provable in principle, however. Your idea can’t even be tested, let alone proven. I disagree. The signals can be both tested and proven, but it’s not the kind of proof you folks would accept. It’s to be found in our hearts. Faith precedes the miracle, so if you’re unwilling to exercise faith in God, you can never know. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/250 "2015-10-22T02:12:08Z")
Suppose we leave atheists out of this for a change. Do many people of faith buy into your hypothesis? There are more than a few right here on this message board. Perhaps they would be willing to chime in?.. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/251 "2015-10-22T03:17:04Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > First of all, let me explain what I mean when I refer to the Theory of Body Signals. It isn’t a scientific theory, but rather a spiritual one. I’ve been observing and analyzing the body signals for decades now, and I like to think I understand what they signify and their potential to change human behavior. > > The theory goes like this: God is able to communicate with all mankind not only through personal revelation, prophets and the scriptures, but also physically through certain “signals” which manifest as itches, muscular twitches, cramps and pains. These signals are not God’s primary means of communicating with us, His children, but are rather supplementary in nature. He doesn’t expect us to watch every little itch or twitch and try to decode them, but they are helpful in letting us know His will in general and work out our problems. > > Here, then, are what I consider to be the most important body signals: > > **Left side** of the body symbolizes **evil** > **Right side** of the body symbolizes **good** > **Legs** symbolize **thoughts** > **Arms and shoulder blades** symbolize **actions** > **Left ear** symbolizes **God’s justice** > **Right ear** symbolizes **God’s mercy** > **Cheeks** mean **God didn’t say that** > **Nose** means **choose** > > For example, if I think an evil thought, my left leg may itch or twitch. If I believe something God didn’t say, one of my cheeks may itch when I reference that belief in my thoughts. If I am kind to others, my right ear may itch or pulse. And so on. > > **…To be continued…** Man, this is some Grade A crazy right here. Not as sensational as the hollow Earth guy we had a while back, but still pretty far down the rabbit hole of delusion. > [@razncain](#): > > Just a quick read of this thread, and if this isn’t some kind of spoof, it seems the OP may have developed a psychosis, especially if we take his word for it that he has been working on this theory of his for decades and believing it to be some sort of reality of how God talks to him. I agree. IF the OP is to be taken at face value (and that’s a big ‘If’ just based on how ridiculous this whole idea is) , then none of these attempts by other Dopers to engage him in rational, logical thinking are going to make one bit of difference. I mean, just read the first quoted part above again and his subsequent posts and ask yourself, “Is this someone who is capable of reason? Objectivity?” Clearly not. And no matter how carefully anyone crafts an argument refuting this ludicrous ‘body signal’ fantasy, the OP will just blow it off by invoking the magic of god and his personal experience with these special, spiritual itches. > [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > I can only think of two others: a former seminary teacher of mine who taught me the “nose = choose” signal, and a grocery clerk who told me to watch my ears. Or, the OP is just having a go at us. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/252 "2015-10-22T06:11:36Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > I disagree. The signals can be both tested and proven, but it’s not the kind of proof you folks would accept. It’s to be found in our hearts. Faith precedes the miracle, so if you’re unwilling to exercise faith in God, you can never know. It’s not just ‘not the right kind of proof’. It’s not proof. In order to be convinced, you have to already be convinced. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/253 "2015-10-22T06:14:11Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > Experience, time and logic. I’m fairly sure I’m describing them correctly; however, I like to keep an open mind and I acknowledge my possible fallibility. Is it possible that you are entirely, 100% wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/254 "2015-10-22T06:22:10Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Describe a test that a neutral 3rd party can observe and verify to see if your claims are true and we’ll take it from there. > [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > It doesn’t work that way, unless that third party can somehow jump inside your body and mind and monitor your thoughts, correlating each little itch with them. You could very easily design a test that records the real-world accuracy of your subjective prognosticative itches, without any need for the experimenter to read your mind. For example, you could be presented with a panel of three people who will tell you anecdotes about their childhood, except one story of each set is an outright lie. You use your itches to decide who is lying and we compare your hit rate to a control, and to the value we could expect you to achieve by pure luck. Any number of similar experiments could be designed that would demonstrate whether there is any reality to your claim, or not, but I already know what you will say in response (and I worked it out without any itches). ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/255 "2015-10-22T10:40:06Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > You could very easily design a test that records the real-world accuracy of your subjective prognosticative itches, without any need for the experimenter to read your mind. > > For example, you could be presented with a panel of three people who will tell you anecdotes about their childhood, except one story of each set is an outright lie. You use your itches to decide who is lying and we compare your hit rate to a control, and to the value we could expect you to achieve by pure luck. > > Any number of similar experiments could be designed that would demonstrate whether there is any reality to your claim, or not, but I already know what you will say in response (and I worked it out without any itches). The signals don’t work that way. They don’t detect other people’s lies and they don’t occur with every little thought or action. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/256 "2015-10-22T10:50:32Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > It’s not just ‘not the right kind of proof’. It’s not proof. In order to be convinced, you have to already be convinced. It’s proof to those who acknowledge the existence and reality of God and who have an open mind. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/257 "2015-10-22T11:13:34Z")
What about if you’re feeling a bit windy, maybe some internal gurgling going on ? ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/258 "2015-10-22T11:23:47Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > What about if you’re feeling a bit windy, maybe some internal gurgling going on ? If you mean shortness of breath, that means either God is offended or you need to quit running so fast. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/259 "2015-10-22T13:11:02Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > It’s proof to those who acknowledge the existence and reality of God and who have an open mind. So in other words, it’s personal revelation. That’s fine, just admit that is what it is and move on. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/260 "2015-10-22T15:02:47Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > It’s proof to those who acknowledge the existence and reality of God and who have an open mind. Ah yes, last refuge of the psuedoscience and the frauds. If proof cannot be observed and verified by a third party, then it is (by definition) not proof. The claim that a person must believe something before it can be demonstrated, or that an observer’s lack of belief causes the trial to fail, is a tremendous red flag. This is the same excuse used by cold readers when the subject refuses to give them the feedback they need to make the con work. It’s the same excuse used when facilitated communication fails under test conditions. And it makes Snark Hunter’s claims no different than any other unsupported claim of religious experience… “It’s true to me, and that’s all that matters.” So while I finish laughing that this, I do have one last question: You claim that ISIS members who commit atrocities are not / cannot be listening to a deity. My question is, how do you know this to be true? If the process you describe consists entirely of personal revelation that no third party can witness or empirically observe, then how do you know that ISIS members are not listening to a message of their own? If your claims are true, then it is entirely possible that an ISIS member could be receiving messages from a deity telling them to do any number of reprehensible things, and (being loyal worshippers) they obey the commands they are given. Since you cannot observe their body signals or the revelation that God communicates to them in their hearts (the same way we cannot objectively assess the revelation God gives you) then how do you know that they are not listening to God? Is it that their perception of God contradicts your assumption of what God should be? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015.md?page=14)