# Body Signals and the Fall of Radical Islam **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 9, 2015, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015 "2015-10-09T11:36:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/321 "2015-11-05T10:03:05Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > Sure sounds like you’re the epitome of open-mindedness. Well shucks, you got me there. Pot, meet Kettle. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2015, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/322 "2015-11-05T10:07:14Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > I’m an atheist who considers the existence of gods to be extremely improbable, and who absolutely believes that there is no YWYH / Jehovah / Elohim deity. Is that close enough? > > I did (a) thru (c). My body signals were the same while reciting “God is not real, and Joseph Smith was a poopyface” as they were while reciting “I love my children”. My right knee is a little sore. It’s been tender for the last hour or so. I think I tore a meniscus 11 years ago, so the pain comes and goes. I’ve got mild itches above both eyebrows, but they go away for a minute if I scratch them. I need to pee. The stigmata (_stigmatum_? what’s the singular for _stigmata_?) on my right palm is not itching at the moment. > > Does this confirm or disconfirm your hypothesis? I’d say I need to modify my hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/323 "2015-11-06T13:26:53Z")
I’m wondering if the OP has any idea what the LDS church mean by _priestcraft_? ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/324 "2015-11-06T18:42:03Z")
DISCLAIMER: Believe in the Theory of Body Signals at your own risk, as I can’t prove them to be true at this time. Stick with the tried-and-true methods of determining spiritual truth via reading the scriptures, pondering them and praying about their truthfulness (Moroni 10:3-5 in the Book of Mormon and James 1:5 in the Bible). ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/325 "2015-11-06T19:05:59Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > Stick with the tried-and-true methods of determining spiritual truth via reading the scriptures, pondering them and praying about their truthfulness (Moroni 10:3-5 in the Book of Mormon and James 1:5 in the Bible). Which brought you such tried-and-true results as the Spanish Inquisition, burning heretics, and covering up for pedophile priests. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/326 "2015-11-06T19:18:02Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > Well shucks, you got me there. Pot, meet Kettle. 😉 Heh. I’d bet my itchy right nut that I’ve considered belief in Mormonism with more sincerity and open-mindedness than you’ve considered atheism. Hell, I’d probably also bet my itchy left nut that I’ve considered Mormonism with more sincerity and open-mindedness than you’ve considered _Mormonism_. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/327 "2015-11-06T19:19:06Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’m wondering if the OP has any idea what the LDS church mean by _priestcraft_? Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the Welfare of Zion…. But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish. And oh, yeah, itchy left elbows supersede all of this. Amen ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/328 "2015-11-06T20:17:24Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > Heh. I’d bet my itchy right nut that I’ve considered belief in Mormonism with more sincerity and open-mindedness than you’ve considered atheism. Hell, I’d probably also bet my itchy left nut that I’ve considered Mormonism with more sincerity and open-mindedness than you’ve considered _Mormonism_. Pay up, then. I grew up a Latter-day Saint, attended all the meetings, was baptized at age eight, was ordained a deacon, teacher and priest in the Aaronic Priesthood and an elder in the Melchizedek Priesthood (but never served a mission); graduated a four-year Seminary student in high school years; have served as Primary, Sunday School, Priesthood and Choir Pianist and twice as Ward Organist; made it to Life Boy Scout and Senior Patrol Leader; have read the Old Testament twice, the New Testament three or four times, the Book of Mormon six or seven times, and the D&C and PoGP once or twice. There’s a difference between priestcraft and the request that “every member should be a missionary.” I’m authorized to be a member missionary and my bishop told me I could write a book on the body signals, so no priestcraft there. Jesus Christ is my personal savior and I have a testimony that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is His true church. This testimony I bear in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/329 "2015-11-06T23:10:51Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > Pay up, then. I grew up a Latter-day Saint, attended all the meetings, was baptized at age eight, was ordained a deacon, teacher and priest in the Aaronic Priesthood and an elder in the Melchizedek Priesthood (but never served a mission); graduated a four-year Seminary student in high school years; have served as Primary, Sunday School, Priesthood and Choir Pianist and twice as Ward Organist; made it to Life Boy Scout and Senior Patrol Leader; have read the Old Testament twice, the New Testament three or four times, the Book of Mormon six or seven times, and the D&C and PoGP once or twice. Well, you got me. I can’t play piano or organ. And I’ve only read the OT once, but read D&C and PoGP many times. But other than that, I can add elders quorum teacher, Sunday School president, missionary for 2 years, zone leader, married in the temple, and was never “inactive”. So ya, let’s compare résumés to see who investigated Mormonism more seriously. If you want to catch up, how about studying PoGP in more detail with an open mind and a sincere desire to know the truth. Look at Book of Abraham facsimiles 1, 2, and 3. Joseph Smith interprets the drawings, and in some instances (facsimile 3, I think) gives direct translations of hieroglyphs above the people drawn. Now look up on Google. How did Joseph do? Did he have a supernatural gift for translating ancient Egyptian scripture? Or is it probable that he was making stuff up? Remember, open-mindedness is the goal here. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/330 "2015-11-06T23:57:33Z")
> [@](#): > > … how about studying PoGP in more detail with an open mind and a sincere desire to know the truth. Look at Book of Abraham facsimiles 1, 2, and 3. And to bring us back to the subject of the thread, that’s what I was doing nearly 7 years ago when my _right_ palm started permanently itching. Right palm is _good_, right? Maybe I was onto something. ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/331 "2015-11-07T01:30:54Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > Well, you got me. I can’t play piano or organ. And I’ve only read the OT once, but read D&C and PoGP many times. But other than that, I can add elders quorum teacher, Sunday School president, missionary for 2 years, zone leader, married in the temple, and was never “inactive”. So ya, let’s compare résumés to see who investigated Mormonism more seriously. > > If you want to catch up, how about studying PoGP in more detail with an open mind and a sincere desire to know the truth. Look at Book of Abraham facsimiles 1, 2, and 3. Joseph Smith interprets the drawings, and in some instances (facsimile 3, I think) gives direct translations of hieroglyphs above the people drawn. Now look up on Google. How did Joseph do? Did he have a supernatural gift for translating ancient Egyptian scripture? Or is it probable that he was making stuff up? Remember, open-mindedness is the goal here. Here’s what [lds.org](http://lds.org) says on this topic: [Translation of the Book of Abraham](https://www.lds.org/topics/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng) ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/332 "2015-11-07T03:24:34Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > Here’s what [lds.org](http://lds.org) says on this topic: [Translation of the Book of Abraham](https://www.lds.org/topics/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng) Yes, I’ve already read that. I think it was written by a guy named Rhodes. No relation. I’m sure you’re aware that “open-mindedness” involves studying _both_ sides of an issue. So if you were sincere and had real intent to find truth, you’d need to look outside of the Joseph Smith Fan Club to assess the validity of his translations. ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/333 "2015-11-07T08:38:11Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > Yes, I’ve already read that. I think it was written by a guy named Rhodes. No relation. > > I’m sure you’re aware that “open-mindedness” involves studying _both_ sides of an issue. So if you were sincere and had real intent to find truth, you’d need to look outside of the Joseph Smith Fan Club to assess the validity of his translations. That’s all well and fine, but as one Apostle has said (to paraphrase), we don’t give equal time to the Adversary. We are one-sided. So while atheism requires looking at both sides of the issue, faith has no such requirement. No man pleases God without faith. To gain faith, we need to study and ponder the scriptures, then ask God in prayer to give us a witness within our hearts that what we just read is true. Even if we just desire to have faith, we can let that desire work within us and nurture it like a seedling, giving it figurative water and sunshine until it is a strong testimony of the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/334 "2015-11-07T15:33:51Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > That’s all well and fine, but as one Apostle has said (to paraphrase), we don’t give equal time to the Adversary. We are one-sided. So while atheism requires looking at both sides of the issue, faith has no such requirement. No man pleases God without faith. To gain faith, we need to study and ponder the scriptures, then ask God in prayer to give us a witness within our hearts that what we just read is true. > > Even if we just desire to have faith, we can let that desire work within us and nurture it like a seedling, giving it figurative water and sunshine until it is a strong testimony of the truth. So “faith”.and “truth”.are mutually exclusive concepts, gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/335 "2015-11-07T18:01:17Z")
Nice. You keep demanding open-mindedness from us, while you’ve been commanded by an Apostle to be closed-minded. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/336 "2015-11-07T18:21:47Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > That’s all well and fine, but as one Apostle has said (to paraphrase), we don’t give equal time to the Adversary. We are one-sided. So while atheism requires looking at both sides of the issue, faith has no such requirement. My old pastor would have choice words for you, I think, although I wouldn’t speak for that kind old man whom I haven’t seen in over a decade. Doubt is the heart and soul of faith. Through doubt, faith is either tempered or shattered - but in either case it’s better off for having been tested. Also in either case your god knew which way you were _really_ skewing all along in your most secret of hearts, so you might as well get in on that memo while you’re at it. And by the way, the Catholic Church at least \*does “\*give equal time to the Adversary”. Where do you think the phrase “devil’s advocate” sprang from ? ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/337 "2015-11-07T18:54:33Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > That’s all well and fine, but as one Apostle has said (to paraphrase), we don’t give equal time to the Adversary. We are one-sided. So while atheism requires looking at both sides of the issue, faith has no such requirement. No man pleases God without faith. To gain faith, we need to study and ponder the scriptures, then ask God in prayer to give us a witness within our hearts that what we just read is true. Thank you. This is about as clear an explanation of what is wrong with religious faith as any I’ve ever seen. And it’s straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak. I’m going to copy/paste/save this for future reference. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/338 "2015-11-07T19:41:03Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > Stick with the tried-and-true methods of determining spiritual truth via reading the scriptures, pondering them and praying about their truthfulness (Moroni 10:3-5 in the Book of Mormon and James 1:5 in the Bible). And baaack to the point of all this- what is needed is the Koranic (Quaranic?) equivalent of the above, spread among ISIS members such that they question the godliness of their behavior. Maybe they will listen to the Koran, though I suspect they have an impenetrable way of interpreting it. Either way, I doubt they would ever respect your Life Scout badge or any Mormon credential you care to name. (not to pick on Boy Scouts. I was a Life Scout myself) ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/339 "2015-11-08T08:27:01Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > And baaack to the point of all this- what is needed is the Koranic (Quaranic?) equivalent of the above, spread among ISIS members such that they question the godliness of their behavior. Maybe they will listen to the Koran, though I suspect they have an impenetrable way of interpreting it. Either way, I doubt they would ever respect your Life Scout badge or any Mormon credential you care to name. > > (not to pick on Boy Scouts. I was a Life Scout myself) Thank you for getting back on topic. I agree with you–ISIS will probably laugh at this thread if they ever see it, and that will be that. I don’t know much about the Koran myself, so I’m left to wonder if it says anything about ISIS’s interpretation of it. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2015, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015/340 "2015-11-08T08:57:11Z")
> [@Snark\_Hunter](#): > > That’s all well and fine, but as one Apostle has said (to paraphrase), we don’t give equal time to the Adversary. We are one-sided. So while atheism requires looking at both sides of the issue, faith has no such requirement. No man pleases God without faith. To gain faith, we need to study and ponder the scriptures, then ask God in prayer to give us a witness within our hearts that what we just read is true. > > Even if we just desire to have faith, we can let that desire work within us and nurture it like a seedling, giving it figurative water and sunshine until it is a strong testimony of the truth. > [@Tangent](#): > > Thank you. This is about as clear an explanation of what is wrong with religious faith as any I’ve ever seen. And it’s straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak. I’m going to copy/paste/save this for future reference. This is what I was complaining about earlier in the thread. In order to start to believe it, you have to first believe it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-signals-and-the-fall-of-radical-islam/734015.md?page=18)