# Bodybuilding nutrition advice-advice **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 21, 2017, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790 "2017-07-21T11:01:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/21 "2017-07-23T21:10:08Z")
Even if that’s the case that he doesn’t want to make any muscle gains (kind of odd that the OP mentions “bodybuilding” three times ), it’s still terrible advice for the reasons I listed above. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/22 "2017-07-23T21:13:52Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Even if that’s the case that he doesn’t want to make any muscle gains (kind of odd that the OP mentions “bodybuilding” three times ), it’s still terrible advice for the reasons I listed above. Look, he needs to cut calories. He’s not going to be able to do that by keeping his other macronutrients the same and adding Protein (unless he does a ton of cardio, which would be OK, but difficult). ETA: this is what he said he wants to do: > [@](#): > > I’d like to be a lean guy with wide shoulders and big arms. Not a competition bodybuilder, just the guy in an “after” photo. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/23 "2017-07-23T21:25:12Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Even if that’s the case that he doesn’t want to make any muscle gains (kind of odd that the OP mentions “bodybuilding” three times ), it’s still terrible advice for the reasons I listed above. Bodybuilding can also refer to a training philosophy even if you don’t aim to gain mass. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/24 "2017-07-23T21:38:36Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Look, he needs to cut calories. He’s not going to be able to do that by keeping his other macronutrients the same and adding Protein. Agreed. He should cut back on fat and carbs and focus on eating lots of lean protein. If he hasn’t been paying attention to his diet I’m sure he’ll find lots of ways to cut calories. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/25 "2017-07-23T21:39:41Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Agreed. He should cut back on fat and carbs and focus on eating lots of lean protein. If he hasn’t been paying attention to his diet I’m sure he’ll find lots of ways to cut calories. In other words, what I said initially. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/26 "2017-07-23T22:04:32Z")
No, you initially said “ **Keep your protein the same** , and cut carbs”, which is terrible advice. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/27 "2017-07-23T22:51:45Z")
In terms of what he does you both may be saying roughly the same thing. The average American man consumes [about 102 grams of protein a day](https://nchstats.com/category/protein/). Which is not _too_ far off from the reasonable 1.5 g/kg of protein intake **Surreal** suggests he aims for if he is the average American male (about 196 lb), and even closer if he is less … burly. Keeping that protein the same absolute amount would be fine. The easy pickin’s for most to cutting calories while keeping protein the same is cutting out simple carbs. Yeah, IOW what **beowulff** said initially. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/28 "2017-07-23T23:36:31Z")
I find [this site](https://cronometer.com/) incredibly helpful. There’s a paid version, but I’ve been using the unpaid one on and off for years. It is a food and biometric tracker which measures a far greater number of nutrition points than most. And you can alter your nutrition targets (e.g. I set my protein target 10% higher than USRDA and my carb target 10% lower.) It began as a tool for CRON (Calorie Restricted Optimal Nutrition) lifestyle folks, but anyone can use it free of charge. It has most brands and restaurant menus already loaded, and if something isn’t there you can hit the “Food” tab and add it in. Some people will scoff, but I do recommend adding a vitamin supplement when you start trying to lose. It will help keep you from going down most of the dangerous slopes with whatever advice you get out there. (For the Web is dark, and full of terrors!) hth ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/29 "2017-07-23T23:41:41Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > . . . > The average American man consumes [about 102 grams of protein a day](https://nchstats.com/category/protein/). . . I’d love to know what they are eating! I set my daily goal around 65mg, and I struggle every day to get enough protein. About the only time I manage it is when I bake a big batch of salmon early in the week and eat it for breakfast every morning. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/30 "2017-07-24T00:04:12Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I’d love to know what they are eating! I set my daily goal around 65mg, and I struggle every day to get enough protein. About the only time I manage it is when I bake a big batch of salmon early in the week and eat it for breakfast every morning. I’m sure those 65 grams of protein you aim to get come from comparably lean sources. If you aren’t worried about what you eat, or how much fat/carbs you are eating, getting ample protein is quite easy. A Whopper from BK, for example, has 31 grams of protein. That’s a lot of protein for one food item. However, the Whopper also has 37 grams of fat. That’s a gigantic amount of fat for one food item. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/31 "2017-07-24T01:15:57Z")
> [@Heracles](#): > > I know that there are people who manage to build lean muscle (or build fat muscle and then become leaner). Not sure what you mean by “fat” and "lean " muscles. But I believe building muscle and losing fat at the same time is impossible or at least very very difficult. To lose fat, you must eat less calories than you expend. To build muscle, you must give your body a surplus that can be turned into muscle. Can’t do both at once. You are better off alternating periods of slimming with workouts designed to maintain muscle mass, and muscle building periods. Or slim first then build when you are done. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/32 "2017-07-24T16:29:28Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Keeping that protein the same absolute amount would be fine. Except we have absolutely no idea how much protein he’s currently consuming, so we have no way to judge whether or not it’s even adequate. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/33 "2017-07-24T16:33:42Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Except we have absolutely no idea how much protein he’s currently consuming, so we have no way to judge whether or not it’s even adequate. The fact that he is: > [@](#): > > a burly guy with wide shoulders and big arms Tells me that he is getting plenty of protein, and has a lot of muscle. He just needs to cut calories to get more defined. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/34 "2017-07-24T16:46:03Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > But, given the lack of negative side effects in creatine, why not give it a try? If it helps you, great, you’ve found a cheap, safe supplement to aid you in reaching your fitness goals. If it doesn’t help, ehh, what have you lost by trying it? A few bucks. This is way too sensible of an approach for this message board. We’re cognitive misers here, we prefer to see everything as black and white. We don’t want to acknowledge that there may be some useful supplements, then we’d have to evaluate everything on a case-by-case basis, which is time-consuming and difficult. Much easier just to make blanket statements like all supplements are unnecessary and/or harmful. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/35 "2017-07-24T17:03:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If you want to maintain muscle and lose fat, do circuit training. That’s when you do a lighter set with about 60% of your 1RM, then immediately do a set for a different muscle group with minimal rest (10-20 seconds, max), then another set for another group, and continue until you have hit all the major groups, and then repeat the cycle without rest for 20-30 minutes. Don’t go to failure, or even close to failure, on any set - the idea is to boost your heart rate and burn off fat. Boosting your heart rate is not a great way to burn off fat. Consuming less calories is. The above is also not the best way to build/maintain muscle. > [@Surreal](#): > > Aim for around 1.5 grams of protein intake per kilogram of body weight per day Or more (there aren’t too many people that know more about protein consumption for athletes than Alan Aragon): > [@beowulff](#): > > No, it’s excellent advice. > The OP is, by his own admission, muscular. He just wants to get more cut. There is no need for him to increase his protein intake in order to add muscle mass - he just needs to cut calories and increase cardio to lean out. There isn’t _necessarily_ a need, because we don’t know how much he is consuming. And there is evidence that protein needs go up for those wanting to optimize maintaining or building muscle on a calorie deficit. Increasing cardio isn’t a need. Sometimes decreasing is beneficial. We don’t have any info on the OP’s cardio. > [@Grim\_Render](#): > > To lose fat, you must eat less calories than you expend. To build muscle, you must give your body a surplus that can be turned into muscle. Can’t do both at once. Sounds like the “First Law of Thermodynamics” argument. See this: > **[Can you gain muscle and lose fat at the same time?](https://mennohenselmans.com/gain-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/)** > > We live in sad times for bodybuilding. Although broscience is finally losing face, it's being replaced by what I can only describe as bodybuilding nihilism ('nothing-ism'). Nothing supposedly matters. Nutrient timing? Just eat when you feel like... OP, below is an excellent paper regarding supplements and a YouTube video featuring Eric Helms that will tell you what you need to know regarding creatine. [Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding contest preparation: nutrition and supplementation | Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition | Full Text](https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-11-20) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/r9eCtOFIf40/hqdefault.jpg "EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT CREATINE (Ft. Eric Helms)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9eCtOFIf40) ---
**Author:** ![Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enter_the_Flagon)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/36 "2017-07-24T17:17:38Z")
Speaking of protein intake, it turns out that a certain magazine which sells protein supplements had been misinforming readers for decades: **The Myth of 1 g/lb: Optimal Protein Intake for Bodybuilders** > **[The myth of 1 g/lb: Optimal protein intake for bodybuilders](https://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/)** > > Protein. It's every bodybuilder's favorite macronutrient and for good reason. Protein is extremely essential, super satiating and amazingly anabolic. Protein is awesome… but you're consuming too much of it. Like most myths, the belief that you should... > [@](#): > > Like most myths, the belief that you should take in 1g/lb of body weight has become so deeply entrenched in the fitness world that its validity is rarely questioned. > > …Based on the sound research, many review papers have concluded 0.82g/lb is the upper limit at which protein intake benefits body composition (Phillips & Van Loon, 2011). This recommendation often includes a double 95% confidence level, meaning they took the highest mean intake at which benefits were still observed and then added two standard deviations to that level to make absolutely sure all possible benefits from additional protein intake are utilized. As such, this is already overdoing it and consuming 1g/lb ”˜to be safe’ doesn’t make any sense. 0.82g/lb is already very safe. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/37 "2017-07-25T00:27:40Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Except we have absolutely no idea how much protein he’s currently consuming, so we have no way to judge whether or not it’s even adequate. True. Hence stating with certainty that keeping his protein the same while otherwise cutting total calories “is terrible advice” is not justified. For all we know he eats substantially more protein than the average American man does. Alternatively a statement that says you two “may be” giving similar advice “if he is the average American male” is accurate. Now of course **beowulff** is exactly correct again - a man who self-describes as “burly” and who drinks the occasional whey shake, is likely not a low protein vegan. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/38 "2017-07-25T00:34:46Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Sounds like the “First Law of Thermodynamics” argument. See this: > > [Can you gain muscle and lose fat at the same time?](https://bayesianbodybuilding.com/gain-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/) I find myself exceedingly skeptical of that site From the start which invokes the laws of thermodynamics to explain biological processes to statements like “Because protein and fat are completely different functional compartments in the body” If there is any truth to this it is too dumbed-down to judge. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/39 "2017-07-25T02:00:58Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Boosting your heart rate is not a great way to burn off fat. Consuming less calories is. The above is also not the best way to build/maintain muscle. You will have noticed that I also mentioned maintaining a caloric intake 100-200 kcal per day below maintenance. This kind of circuit training is a form of high intensity interval training. The idea is not simply to burn calories by exercise, although that happens, but also to boost your metabolic rate so you burn more calories between exercise sessions. It is difficult to gain muscle without gaining fat as well. It’s also difficult to lose fat without losing muscle. Circuit training is not the best way to build muscle, true, but it is a good way to maintain muscle while losing fat. You keep yourself in caloric deficit so you lose fat, but you stimulate the muscles with significant overload (by using weights over 60% of your 1RM) so that the body maintains the muscle mass in the exercised areas, and thus shift the balance to lose as much fat and as little muscle mass as possible. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790/40 "2017-07-25T04:00:42Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > I find myself exceedingly skeptical of that site > > From the start which invokes the laws of thermodynamics to explain biological processes to statements like “Because protein and fat are completely different functional compartments in the body” If there is any truth to this it is too dumbed-down to judge. And this: “your body directs calories towards muscle and fat mass independently. Researchers call this calorie partitioning and the resulting change in fat and muscle mass are expressed as a P-ratio.” is complete garbage. The concept of the P-ratio is a real one but what it describes is how [interdependent](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2376748/) fat and muscle gain and loss are, dependent on initial fat mass, both the direction and magnitude of the weight change, and individual variation. > [@Hall](#): > > The P-ratio defines the fraction of an energy imbalance accounted for by changes of the body’s protein reserves. While the P-ratio was originally assumed to be a constant for each individual (Dugdale & Payne, 1977; Payne & Dugdale, 1977b; Payne & Dugdale, 1977a), here I show that the new expression of Forbes’s theory implies that the P-ratio depends on the initial body composition as well as the direction and magnitude of weight change. This does not mean that it is impossible to gain muscle mass while losing fat mass. The overweight and obese will tend to have less muscle loss during underfeeding than those not in any case, and the question is how much nutrition (amount, type, and possibly timing of protein intake, for example), and exercise (both type and duration) can impact the process. > [@Shodan](#): > > … is a form of high intensity interval training. The idea is not simply to burn calories by exercise, although that happens, but also to boost your metabolic rate so you burn more calories between exercise sessions. … That’s the idea. How much does it actually do that though? FWIW my understanding is the calories burned during the recovery phase (excess post-exercise oxygen consumption, EPOC) is even with HIIT a small amount compared to that burned during exercise. Not dissing HIIT (circuit training inclusive) here … it does seem to be effective in promoting fat loss over muscle loss. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bodybuilding-nutrition-advice-advice/791790.md?page=3)