# Boiling water into snow in sub zero temps.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boiling-water-into-snow-in-sub-zero-temps/481264
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [January 14, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boiling-water-into-snow-in-sub-zero-temps/481264 "2009-01-14T16:06:34Z")
**Posts on this page:** 10
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boiling-water-into-snow-in-sub-zero-temps/481264/41 "2009-01-15T18:53:41Z")
I think the wind is very important for this to work. Snow making equipment has a very high powered fan in use.
---
### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boiling-water-into-snow-in-sub-zero-temps/481264/42 "2009-01-15T19:05:28Z")
> [@Chefguy](#):
>
> Sorry, but you’re completely wrong, your urine notwithstanding. Urine contains proteins and sugars and is not anything like plain old water. And -35C is not nearly cold enough for this particular process to occur. -35F is a different story, and at -50F, odd things start to happen: oil freezes, gasoline turns to jelly, and yes, water thown into the air does not reach the ground as visible liquid.
Plus, I’d reckon it’d be that much more dangerous for any exposed skin for the comparison test…on the other hand you wouldnt have so much a problem with hardness.
---
### Author:  [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boiling-water-into-snow-in-sub-zero-temps/481264/43 "2009-01-15T20:07:19Z")
> [@Chefguy](#):
>
> , your urine notwithstanding. Urine contains proteins and sugars and is not anything like plain old water.
No. It’s very much like water, being that it IS water with a few “spices” thrown in. It definately freezes at the temperatures you’re talking about just fine. And “plain old water” contains all sorts of varying levels of salts, minerals, dissolved organics, etc as well.
> [@](#):
>
> And -35C is not nearly cold enough for this particular process to occur. -35F is a different story,
This is utter nonsense. Please enlighten us as to the significance of 2.2ºC on this phenominum.
> [@](#):
>
> and at -50F, odd things start to happen: oil freezes, gasoline turns to jelly,
There is nothing “odd” about about oil freezing when it gets cold enough. It’s a simple phase change, and it’s why we have block heaters. Gasoline does not turn to jelly at -50F, impurities in it like water might freeze, but gasoline doesn’t even have one set freezing temperature; you’ll have to go below -97F before anything substantial will happen to gasoline due to temperature alone. On numerous occasions last winter in Northern Alberta I went out to my truck in the morning at -55F, turned the key, and drove to work. Nothing odd happened.
> [@](#):
>
> and yes, water thown into the air does not reach the ground as visible liquid.
This is a hopelessly vague and silly claim. How much water, at what initial temperature, with what impurities, in what kind of spray pattern, how long is the air time… and what is the “visible liquid” state of water?
If you want to freeze water in the air you just need to maximize it’s surface area and suspend it in suitably cold air. Snow machines do this at temperatures barely below freezing. And you can easily toss a large blob of liquid water a few feet through the air at even -100 and almost all of it will splash onto the ground. It’s all about getting the water into small enough droplets, and casually tossing a cup full of water into the air ain’t gonna do that 99% of the time.
> [@](#):
>
> Sorry, but you’re completely wrong
You wanna re-think that?
---
### Author:  [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boiling-water-into-snow-in-sub-zero-temps/481264/44 "2009-01-15T20:09:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Steam is gaseous water, and is invisible.
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Well, the words themselves are fine, but picking consistent definitions of words and sticking with them makes it a lot easier to teach other, physically significant, concepts. … .
Since we are nitpicking.
By taking your definition, I can only conclude that our atmosphere is steaming.
I’m thinking perhaps I need a steam ticket to run my compressed air system as I do get considerable condensate out of it.
> [@](#):
>
> For instance, if a “steam pipe” leaks, it can produce an invisible but very dangerous jet of high-temperature gaseous water, but this is harder to explain to someone who has it fixed in their head that steam is visible.
Do you know for a fact? That a high pressure steam jet is invisible? I’ve been around stream systems at a paper mill and winter cement mix batch plants for several years and never warned about it. I can’t find confirmation for it on Google either. Doesn’t make sense since the steam still has to condense albeit a little further away from the exit point.
> [@](#):
>
> We could, of course, define “steam” to be the visible stuff and exclusively use “vapor” for the true gaseous phase, but then we’d have to go and rename steam pipes “vapor pipes”, and the like
That won’t work either. Steam systems above 374[sup]0[/sup]C don’t contain vapor. Furthermore we like to define what’s in a pipe not by the state of the material but by the material itself. All steam is water. All vapor is not water.
---
### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boiling-water-into-snow-in-sub-zero-temps/481264/45 "2009-01-15T20:25:19Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Since we are nitpicking.
>
> By taking your definition, I can only conclude that our atmosphere is steaming.
All steam is gaseous water. This does not imply that all gaseous water is steam.
> [@](#):
>
> Do you know for a fact? That a high pressure steam jet is invisible? I’ve been around stream systems at a paper mill and winter cement mix batch plants for several years and never warned about it. I can’t find confirmation for it on Google either. Doesn’t make sense since the steam still has to condense albeit a little further away from the exit point.
Again, you’re overgeneralizing. What I said was that a leak _can_ produce a dangerous invisible jet, not that it always does. How far the jet gets before becoming visible and how dangerous it is will of course depend on the pressure and temperature of the system, and probably on the size of the leak.
> [@](#):
>
> That won’t work either. Steam systems above 374[sup]0[/sup]C don’t contain vapor.
What definition of “vapor” are you using here? It doesn’t seem to match any with which I am familiar. And we do in fact define the content of the pipes by state and not just by material, or we would call steam pipes “water pipes”, since water is the general term for H[sub]2[/sup]O, regardless of phase (I would never say, for instance, that the ground is covered with solid steam).
---
### Author:  [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boiling-water-into-snow-in-sub-zero-temps/481264/46 "2009-01-15T20:46:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> What definition of “vapor” are you using here? It doesn’t seem to match any with which I am familiar.
Well there is some value to all this nitpicking. I learned that steam is invisible. You are about to learn the true definition of [vapor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor).
> [@](#):
>
> A vapor … is a substance in the gas phase at a temperature lower than its critical temperature.[1] This means that the vapor can be condensed to a liquid or to a solid by increasing its pressure, without reducing the temperature.
>
> For example, water has a critical temperature of 374°C (or 647 K) which is the highest temperature at which liquid water can exist. In the atmosphere at ordinary temperatures, therefore, gaseous water is known as water vapor and will condense to liquid if its partial pressure is increased sufficiently.
---
### Author:  [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2009, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boiling-water-into-snow-in-sub-zero-temps/481264/47 "2009-01-16T12:24:00Z")
> [@Telemark](#):
>
> [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ3CKgZEitw&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ3CKgZEitw&feature=related)
>
> According to the folks on Mt Washington the water needs to be near boiling for it to work successfully. Lower temps of the water (below 200) doesn’t work as well so that may explain why it doesn’t work with piss.
>
> [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC3DUwseZn8&NR=1](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC3DUwseZn8&NR=1)
>
> I’m sure the wind helps atomize things as well.
Cool. Could it be that pressure is an issue? (I have no idea how tall this Mount Washington is). It makes boiling water a little bit “colder” than at sea level. Also, I guess that all that wind helps atomize the water and help the process.
---
### Author:  [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boiling-water-into-snow-in-sub-zero-temps/481264/48 "2009-01-16T12:55:19Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#):
>
> Well there is some value to all this nitpicking. I learned that steam is invisible. You are about to learn the true definition of [vapor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor).
Just to be clear: “steam” is invisible only when you are using the word to mean the vapor phase of water. This is not its only definition. It is not even the original definition of the word, and there is nothing that should constrain anyone from using the term “steam” to refer to the visible mist produced by boiling water. A more “precise” definition which hijacks an existing word does not then achieve some sort of paramount privilege of being described as more correct.
It would be one thing to correct an engineering student confusing the two concepts for which the word is used. It would be wrong to correct everyday usage if someone wants to admire the steam coming out of their kitchen kettle.
The first example is educated precision for the sake of clarity. The second is uneducated pseudo-pedantry which will backfire if the correctee bothers to go look up the word to see who owned it first and what its original usage is.
---
### Author:  [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boiling-water-into-snow-in-sub-zero-temps/481264/49 "2009-01-16T15:14:12Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> Just to be clear: “steam” is invisible only when you are using the word to mean the vapor phase of water. This is not its only definition. It is not even the original definition of the word, and there is nothing that should constrain anyone from using the term “steam” to refer to the visible mist produced by boiling water. A more “precise” definition which hijacks an existing word does not then achieve some sort of paramount privilege of being described as more correct.
>
> It would be one thing to correct an engineering student confusing the two concepts for which the word is used. It would be wrong to correct everyday usage if someone wants to admire the steam coming out of their kitchen kettle.
> The first example is educated precision for the sake of clarity. The second is uneducated pseudo-pedantry which will backfire if the correctee bothers to go look up the word to see who owned it first and what its original usage is.
As a former Marine Engineer, someone who studdied engineering in relationship to boilers and steam machinery here is my coment.
People in the trade, that is someone working with boilers, turbines, recips, will consider any water vapor that is produced by boiling water steam. Thus the white stuff from the tea pot, the steam pipe leak, comming off a vent pipe, comming out of a safety, etc. that is steam.
Now the white stuff comming out of the cooling tower is just water vapor.
---
### Author:  [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boiling-water-into-snow-in-sub-zero-temps/481264/50 "2009-01-16T15:19:02Z")
> [@Sapo](#):
>
> Cool. Could it be that pressure is an issue? (I have no idea how tall this Mount Washington is). It makes boiling water a little bit “colder” than at sea level. Also, I guess that all that wind helps atomize the water and help the process.
Not really. Mt Washington is 6288’, not enough for a significant change in pressure.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boiling-water-into-snow-in-sub-zero-temps/481264.md?page=2)