# Bolivia wins, USA loses **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 21, 2020, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478 "2020-10-21T09:22:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/21 "2020-10-22T12:39:15Z")
Who’s the OAS? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/22 "2020-10-22T14:42:42Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Who’s the OAS?. The [Organization of American States.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_American_States). It’s made up of the countries of the Western Hemisphere, and these days concentrates on election monitoring. In last year’s election, in which the disputed issue was whether Morales had gained the more than 10% over that of his rival needed to avoid a runoff, the OAS found that the Morales side had committed fraud in stating that he had. However, other observers have disputed that, and said that he won. Whatever the case, the election led to widespread protests that caused Morales to flee the country and take refuge in Mexico. In my opinion, Morales’s chicanery goes back further, to running for a fourth term in the first place. As I mentioned, he held a national referendum on whether to allow indefinite re-election, which he narrowly lost. Rather than accept the will of the people, he then instituted court cases to allow him to run. The ins and outs of the subsequent decisions are convoluted but the upshot was he was allowed to run. As I see it, even if this was technically legal it was highly unethical. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/23 "2020-10-22T14:44:07Z")
> [@Manwich](#): > > Read a bit about it, So you don’t know much about it, do you? > [@](#): > > You’ve got the total open slave wanting, facsist country rural cunt vs the more bougie city neo liberal. There hasn’t been a popular right leader at all lately. \ Thank you for the detailed analysis!😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/24 "2020-10-22T16:04:36Z")
> [@Manwich](#): > > You’ve got the total open slave wanting, facsist country rural cunt vs the more bougie city neo liberal. Moderating: I cannot parse this pile of glop, but it looks like trolling to me. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/25 "2020-10-22T16:29:02Z")
To be clear, I think Morales in general has been positive for Bolivia, in particular in empowering the large indigenous population (the largest proportion in the Americas), and reducing the massive levels of inequality and poverty. Unlike in Venezuela, he practiced pretty sound fiscal management. From [Wiki:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Bolivia) > [@](#): > > Between 2006 and 2019 (term of the presidency of the democratic socialist [Evo Morales](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales) Ayma), GDP per capita quadrupled and the extreme poverty rate declined from 38% to 18%.[[22]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Bolivia#cite_note-23) The poverty rate declined from 22.23% in 2000 to 12.38% in 2010.[[23]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Bolivia#cite_note-24) This makes his attempt to stay in office all the more tragic. This gives rightists the opportunity to try to discredit socialists as being sure to seize power in the long run. Clearly, the recent victory of his movement shows that it wasn’t dependent on his personal leadership to succeed. He would have done his country better service to pass on the torch without putting it through the recent upheavals. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/26 "2020-10-22T16:39:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Whatever the case, the election led to widespread protests that caused Morales to flee the country and take refuge in Mexico. I generally agree with you on this topic, but on this specifically, the military essentially forced Morales to step down. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/27 "2020-10-22T16:55:07Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > However, the new government was also recognized by Canada and Russia. Just a nitpick here, getting recognition is easier, what I said was support. > **[President Donald Trump Applauds Bolivia's Military For Role In Coup](https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/11/12/trump-applauds-bolivias-military-coup-us-establishment-media-blame-morales-turmoil)** > > President Donald Trump celebrated a military coup in Bolivia that forced President Evo Morales, who recently won a fourth term, to resign on November 10. > **[The New York Times Admits Key Falsehoods That Drove Last Year's Coup in...](https://theintercept.com/2020/06/08/the-nyt-admits-key-falsehoods-that-drove-last-years-coup-in-bolivia-falsehoods-peddled-by-the-u-s-its-media-and-the-nyt/)** > > The U.S. government and its media once again help destroy a thriving Latin American democracy. Again, I do agree that Evo trying to extend his rule was unnecessary and it only gave a big opening to the inept right. There are lessons there for all involved in Bolivia. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/28 "2020-10-22T17:02:59Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > I generally agree with you on this topic, but on this specifically, the military essentially forced Morales to step down. While the military and police asked Morales to resign, so did the [National Worker’s Union.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivian_Workers%27_Center). It wasn’t a simple left-right issue, as Morales’ loss of the constitutional revision showed. Morales at best received 47% of the vote; the question was whether he received enough over his opponent to avoid a run-off. The [2019 election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Bolivian_general_election) was a complete mess, no matter how you look at it. I’m not even going to begin to try to sort out the accusations and counter accusations. As I said, my main point is that Morales could have avoided all that if he hadn’t attempted overreach. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/29 "2020-10-22T17:11:32Z")
I agree that it was a mess, I just think the fact that the military forced Morales out is an important detail. I think the fact that the caretaker government allowed fair elections and is going to allow MAS to regain power electorally lends credence to the fact that it was not an attempted takeover by a military junta; however whether a figure steps down purely due to protests or whether the triggering event was the military is important. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/30 "2020-10-22T19:59:43Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Because everyone ahead of her in the succession fled the country or resigned, [Jeannine Anez](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanine_%C3%81%C3%B1ez) became president after Morales. That’s some _Designated Survivor/Battlestar Galactica_-level succession! (Thankfully under less bloody circumstances.) Second vice president of the Senate, fifth in line. At least she was elected by somebody, not Secretary of Education or the like. ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2021, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/31 "2021-01-16T08:49:46Z")
Not getting the problem with trying to hold on to power if it’s democratically elected power. No every country has two term limits. A big reason the US backed military coup failed was the strength of grassroots organisations and unions ensuring the military had no choice but to allow free elections. Ollie Vargas is a good journalist to follow regarding this. Something other countries with facist coup problems could learn from. > **[Six months after the coup, journalist Ollie Vargas says the ‘Bolivian people...](https://www.thecanary.co/feature/2020/05/10/six-months-after-the-coup-journalist-ollie-vargas-says-the-bolivian-people-have-been-abandoned/)** > > "People shouldn't forget about Bolivia" To summarise, the steps of the coup were: Waves of fake news OAS falsely claiming a rigged election, they falsified numbers themselves. (Ring any bells USA?) Burning down houses of the members of the true winning party Violent protests spawned by the false OAS claims Desertion and treason from police and military. A lesson for us all. ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2021, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/32 "2021-01-16T08:51:04Z")
"Whatever good he did, his attempt to make himself President-for-Life by stealing the last election " How did that comment age? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2021, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/33 "2021-01-16T14:21:36Z")
Still completely valid. ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2021, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/34 "2021-01-16T19:48:55Z")
Ok, for anyone else reading, in no way did Morales steal or try to steal anything. It turned out that the OAS lied in a very Trump like way. They said numbers didn’t add up. But the votes were coming from different areas, there was no irregularities. This was revealed too late to stop deadly violence and a year long coup. The coup government undid years of economic progress, the numbers are staggering. The pre coup, democratic government did big GDP numbers economists love and at the same time reduced inequity. The coup government took out loans on ridiculous terms which now mean the democratic government are held to economic ransom. It’s like being mugged and finding you you have a debt to pay. USA must have been fuming the entire time. A successful rogue state and a clear success for democracy? Crush it. ---
**Author:** ![RyanAdam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@RyanAdam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyanAdam)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2021, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/35 "2021-01-16T20:22:08Z")
From the info here it’s quite clear Colibri renders facts more reliably while you’re hung up on eccusing the radical Left and a priori anti Americanism ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2021, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/36 "2021-01-16T20:31:09Z")
> [@RyanAdam](#): > > the radical Left Yeah they 720 kick flipped the economy AND promoted social justice. (Socialist) party on dude! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2021, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/37 "2021-01-16T20:31:41Z")
> [@Manwich](#): > > It turned out that the OAS lied in a very Trump like way. They said numbers didn’t add up. But the votes were coming from different areas, there was no irregularities. The OAS’s statistical analysis has been challenged, but there were many other instances of fraudulent activity at the polls. In any case, the root cause of the problem was still Morales attempting to make himself president for life, despite his referendum on re-election having been voted down. Morales being personally re-elected would have been detrimental to democracy in Bolivia; he should have allowed an ally to run. ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2021, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/38 "2021-01-16T20:34:28Z")
Whats your thing with Morales needing a puppet? Strict USA civics class teacher still in your head. Of all the things to worry about with the coup, deaths, anti democratic interference in the election. Why him? ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2021, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/39 "2021-01-16T20:35:41Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The OAS’s statistical analysis has been challenged Martin playing “My Dinner with Andre” arcade game: Tell me more! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478/40 "2021-01-16T20:50:15Z")
> [@Manwich](#): > > Whats your thing with Morales needing a puppet? I didn’t say a puppet, I said an ally. Reliance on a single charismatic individual is historically very bad for political movements. Surely someone else can carry the ideas forward. > [@Manwich](#): > > > [@Colibri](#): > > > > The OAS’s statistical analysis has been challenged > > Martin playing “My Dinner with Andre” arcade game: Tell me more! Do your own research beyond your own biased sites. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivia-wins-usa-loses/923478.md?page=3)