# Bolivian President Shakedown: US Descends to Dubya Administration Levels of Stupidity, Arrogance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726 "2013-07-05T15:28:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/1 "2013-07-05T15:28:26Z")
Ecuadorian President Evo Morales was in Russia for some trade talks recently. Leaving the conference on July 2 (the report was posted on July 2, it was breaking news but it may have been July 1) the plan was to fly to Portugal and refuel in Portugal. But the government refused to allow Morales’ plane to land, citing reports that there was an unauthorized passenger on the plane, i.e., Edward Snowden. In addition, the government of France refused to allow Morales’ plane to take its planned route by flying over French airspace for the same reason. This forced the pilot to make an emergency landing in Austria, where authorities took the opportunity to conduct a search of Morales’ plane, very much against Morales’ wishes. Without results. Snowden was not on the plane, say both the Ecuadorians and the Austrians. Of course, everyone knows, despite official silence, that the source of those stories about Snowden was the US. [Huffington Post story on the incidents here.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/02/bolivia-snowden_n_3536962.html) So the US is left looking like an arrogant, clumsy, bullying doofus all to get Edward Snowden, whom [Obama declared not important](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/28/obama-edward-snowden-hacker_n_3515562.html)enough to merit risking the ire of other countries to obtain less than a week earlier. Ecuador and several other Latin American countries are mad as hell at us, and I’m SURE that France, Portugal and Austria are enjoyed the role of American stooges that they’ve been pressed into, all for no result. When I first encountered this story I was appalled at the level of arrogance it showed. And the stupidity: other reports say that Morales’ plane was never at the same airport in Russia that Snowden is hiding out in. This is the sort of thing I would have expected from George W. Bush and his administration of drooling retards, you know, the people who outed Valerie Plame as a CIA agent (endangering her entire network and destroying her effectiveness) over petty anger at something her husband did. Yes, the Obama Administration has fallen that low, become as petty and arrogant and hypocritical as the Bush Administration, in one fell swoop. Because Obama was right when he lied that getting revenge on Snowden was not that important. But his administration’s actions show that they are willing to piss off much of Europe and South American to get revenge on Snowden. And they did it so stupidly! Either Obama is a stupid lying hypocrite, or he is totally ineffectual as President, unable to control his State Department. I used to think he was a lot smarter than Bush, and that by extension his govenment would be run more intelligently than Bush’s, and for the most part, it has been, except in relation to the Wall Street moguls who own both his Administration and Congress. But this affair is right there in Dubya territory. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/2 "2013-07-05T15:41:10Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > And the stupidity: other reports say that Morales’ plane was never at the same airport in Russia that Snowden is hiding out in. However I think there were Ecuadorian embassy cars at the airport where Snowden has been holed up and Morales had said Ecuador might offer him asylum. It is technically possible to get from one airport to another by car. > [@](#): > > So the US is left looking like an arrogant, clumsy, bullying doofus all to get Edward Snowden, whom [Obama declared not important](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/28/obama-edward-snowden-hacker_n_3515562.html)enough to merit risking the ire of other countries to obtain less than a week earlier. No, this is not what Obama said. He said he wouldn’t scramble jets to get him and wasn’t willing to compromise on a variety of other issues just to get Snowden extradited. I’m having trouble being outraged about a plane being delayed. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/3 "2013-07-05T15:48:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > However I think there were Ecuadorian embassy cars at the airport where Snowden has been holed up and Morales had said Ecuador might offer him asylum. It is technically possible to get from one airport to another by car. > > No, this is not what Obama said. He said he wouldn’t scramble jets to get him and wasn’t willing to compromise on a variety of other issues just to get Snowden extradited. > > I’m having trouble being outraged about a plane being delayed. Great. The first time Airforce 1 is forced to land and searched at the behest of China we’ll all be a-okay with it. ---
**Author:** ![chizzuk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@chizzuk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chizzuk)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/4 "2013-07-05T15:49:14Z")
Evo Morales is president of Bolivia, not Ecuador, FWIW. It’s the Bolivians who are upset. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/5 "2013-07-05T15:53:36Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Great. The first time Airforce 1 is forced to land and searched at the behest of China we’ll all be a-okay with it. And the next time a Latin American leader tries to score some free points by bashing the U.S. it’ll be a big deal, I guess, because it’s such a rare occurrence that it must be taken seriously. I just can’t get that upset about diplomatic slights like this. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/6 "2013-07-05T15:55:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The plane wasn’t searched. Yes it was. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/7 "2013-07-05T15:56:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The plane wasn’t searched. Morales claimed it wasn’t, Austria claims it was. Why do you think they would have said Snowden was not on the plane otherwise: what basis would they have had for saying so? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/8 "2013-07-05T15:59:03Z")
> [@chizzuk](#): > > Evo Morales is president of Bolivia, not Ecuador, FWIW. It’s the Bolivians who are upset. Sorry, I mentally conflated this with stories I had read earlier about Ecuador giving Julian Assange asylum. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/9 "2013-07-05T15:59:17Z")
Of course they’ll say it wasn’t searched. Like you should believe anything ‘they’ say. All I know is Snowden deserves all he gets; barefaced lying to Congress and the US people like that about something so fundamental as basic freedoms: Who the hell serves who here. Did I get that right? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/10 "2013-07-05T16:01:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > However I think there were Ecuadorian embassy cars at the airport where Snowden has been holed up and Morales had said Ecuador might offer him asylum. It is technically possible to get from one airport to another by car. > > No, this is not what Obama said. He said he wouldn’t scramble jets to get him and wasn’t willing to compromise on a variety of other issues just to get Snowden extradited. > > I’m having trouble being outraged about a plane being delayed. Obama specifically said that Snowden wasn’t important enough to allow him to be used as a bargaining chip in trade talks and such. Yet here Obama is, pissing off countries left and right to get Snowden in an absolutely moronic fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/11 "2013-07-05T16:02:26Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Yes it was. I revised the post to take that out, but just to make this more confusing, [Austrian officials say the plane was searched the plane with Morales’ permission and the Bolivians say there was no search because Morales refused.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/04/us-usa-security-snowden-idUSBRE9610C520130704) > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Obama specifically said that Snowden wasn’t important enough to allow him to be used as a bargaining chip in trade talks and such. In other words, Obama said he wouldn’t do one thing and then did (allegedly) something else. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/12 "2013-07-05T16:03:03Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Of course they’ll say it wasn’t searched. Like you should believe anything ‘they’ say. > > All I know is Snowden deserves all he gets; barefaced lying to Congress and the US people like that about something so fundamental as basic freedoms: Who the hell serves who here. > > Did I get that right? I’m not even sure what you meant. When did Snowden lie to Congress? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/13 "2013-07-05T16:05:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I revised the post to take that out, but just to make this more confusing, [Austrian officials say the plane was searched the plane with Morales’ permission and the Bolivians say there was no search because Morales refused.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/04/us-usa-security-snowden-idUSBRE9610C520130704) > > In other words, Obama said he wouldn’t do one thing and then did (allegedly) something else. Well so long as you are revising the post, how about fixing my mistake in identifying Morales as Ecuador’s president, rather than Bolivia’s? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/14 "2013-07-05T16:07:23Z")
I didn’t realise that there is no International Warrant (Interpol Red Notice or other) for Mr Snowden. I suppose the idea is to trap him in a country that actually has an extradition treaty with the USA. That or just throw him in a Blackwater private jet. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/15 "2013-07-05T16:07:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I revised the post to take that out, but just to make this more confusing, [Austrian officials say the plane was searched the plane with Morales’ permission and the Bolivians say there was no search because Morales refused.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/04/us-usa-security-snowden-idUSBRE9610C520130704) > > In other words, Obama said he wouldn’t do one thing and then did (allegedly) something else. So your contention would be that Obama felt that Snowden was not important enough to scramble jets over, or to become a bargaining point in negotiations over, but pissing the hell out of a number of pissant little Latin American and European nations was just fine and dandy? Nothing arrogant about that, nope. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/16 "2013-07-05T16:09:25Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I’m not even sure what you meant. When did Snowden lie to Congress? I suppose the point was who is the real criminal here; the employee who lied to the US people and its elected representatives about mass surveillance, or the guy who informed the people about the lie. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/17 "2013-07-05T16:22:25Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > I suppose the point was who is the real criminal here; the employee who lied to the US people and its elected representatives about mass surveillance, or the guy who informed the people about the lie. [QUOTE=18 USC § 793] [Whoever,](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793) lawfully having possession of, access to, control over, or being entrusted with any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it… …Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both. [/QUOTE] Does that answer your question? > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Obama specifically said that Snowden wasn’t important enough to allow him to be used as a bargaining chip in trade talks and such. Yet here Obama is, pissing off countries left and right to get Snowden in an absolutely moronic fashion. Cite that Obama was in any way whatsoever involved in this decision? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/18 "2013-07-05T16:25:03Z")
He doesn’t have a cite. He’s just assuming. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/19 "2013-07-05T16:25:18Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well so long as you are revising the post, how about fixing my mistake in identifying Morales as Ecuador’s president, rather than Bolivia’s? No problem. This does make kind of a hash out of my first post- Morales did say Bolivia might consider granting asylum for Snowden, but the car thing was Ecuador. So much for that. > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > So your contention would be that Obama felt that Snowden was not important enough to scramble jets over, or to become a bargaining point in negotiations over, but pissing the hell out of a number of pissant little Latin American and European nations was just fine and dandy? You’re basically arguing that Obama is a hypocrite for spending $1 on something he said wasn’t worth $10. That’s not hypocrisy. I’ll put it this way: I can see calling it arrogant if this was someone’s way of getting back at Morales, and that’s really stupid. But I also doubt that’s the case. Asking other countries to cooperate in looking at the plane because they (wrongly) thought Snowden was onboard doesn’t strike me as arrogant. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/20 "2013-07-05T16:39:37Z")
For that matter, cite that any American at all was in any way involved in this decision? Portugal and France both decided not to let the plane through at all, and Austria decided to search the plane. I suppose you could argue that Portugal, France, and/or Austria are stupid and should be embarrassed, but neither Portugal, France, nor Austria is the US. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726.md?page=2)