# Bolivian President Shakedown: US Descends to Dubya Administration Levels of Stupidity, Arrogance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726 "2013-07-05T15:28:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/21 "2013-07-05T16:41:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Does that answer your question? > > Cite that Obama was in any way whatsoever involved in this decision? I already covered that: [QUOTE=from the OP] Either Obama is a stupid lying hypocrite, or he is totally ineffectual as President, unable to control his State Department. [/QUOTE] So far as I know, the State Department is not SUPPOSED to make the President look like a liar and a blundering fool. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/22 "2013-07-05T16:45:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > For that matter, cite that any American at all was in any way involved in this decision? Portugal and France both decided not to let the plane through at all, and Austria decided to search the plane. I suppose you could argue that Portugal, France, and/or Austria are stupid and should be embarrassed, but neither Portugal, France, nor Austria is the US. Sure, provide a list of other countries that have a strong interest in getting at Snowden, and who have the clout to make the Portuguese, the French and the Austrians actually obstruct the travels of the president of a sovriegn state over it. I’ll be patient. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/23 "2013-07-05T16:45:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > For that matter, cite that any American at all was in any way involved in this decision? Portugal and France both decided not to let the plane through at all, and Austria decided to search the plane. I suppose you could argue that Portugal, France, and/or Austria are stupid and should be embarrassed, but neither Portugal, France, nor Austria is the US. Yeah, that’s what I don’t get. This all happened in Europe. How are we the bad guys here? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/24 "2013-07-05T16:48:41Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I’ll be patient. And we’ll patiently wait for you to show that anybody was _made_ to do anything. I have no trouble believing the U.S. asked these countries to deny clearance to Morales’ plane. The U.S. was in no position to force them to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/25 "2013-07-05T16:51:36Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > So far as I know, the State Department is not SUPPOSED to make the President look like a liar and a blundering fool. Cite that the State Department was in any way involved in this decision? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/26 "2013-07-05T16:54:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Does that answer your question? And Clapper lied to Congress, which is a felony. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/27 "2013-07-05T16:56:59Z")
That answers the question in a more balanced way. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/28 "2013-07-05T16:58:35Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > And Clapper lied to Congress, which is a felony. [Clapper did not lie; he erred.](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/07/02/national-intelligence-clapper-nsa-surveillance/2484633/) ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/29 "2013-07-05T16:58:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And we’ll patiently wait for you to show that anybody was _made_ to do anything. I have no trouble believing the U.S. asked these countries to deny clearance to Morales’ plane. The U.S. was in no position to force them to do that. Right. Thye leaders of those crazy countries all did it for the shit and giggles. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/30 "2013-07-05T17:03:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cite that the State Department was in any way involved in this decision? All right, Smapti, who do you think did it? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/31 "2013-07-05T17:04:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And we’ll patiently wait for you to show that anybody was _made_ to do anything. I have no trouble believing the U.S. asked these countries to deny clearance to Morales’ plane. The U.S. was in no position to force them to do that. OK, we didn’t _force_ them to do anything. But the violation of one nation’s sovereignty at the request of another sure does have something to do with the relative pull of the countries in question. When you’re the big guy on the block, often you don’t need to do your own bullying; you can get others to willingly do it for you. It doesn’t make either the U.S. or our allies look like anything besides major-league assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/32 "2013-07-05T17:05:05Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > All right, Smapti, who do you think did it? You’re the one that’s outraged. Why don’t you provide some concrete evidence that your outrage is justified? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/33 "2013-07-05T17:05:40Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Right. Thye leaders of those crazy countries all did it for the shit and giggles. Because those countries are not U.S. allies and would never have agreed unless the U.S. threatened to nuke them or cut off trade. This is some fascinating stuff. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/34 "2013-07-05T17:09:24Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Ecuador and several other Latin American countries are mad as hell at us, and I’m SURE that France, Portugal and Austria are enjoyed the role of American stooges that they’ve been pressed into, all for no result. I’m going to go out on a limb and say Obama doesn’t really cares about what they think. And it doesn’t really matter, as long as they do what they’re told. So it’s not stupid. Arrogant, maybe, but you could say that about everything the U.S. does, so whatever. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/35 "2013-07-05T17:12:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [Clapper did not lie; he erred.](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/07/02/national-intelligence-clapper-nsa-surveillance/2484633/) Can you explain your distinction between a lie and a mere ginormous error by someone whose job it was to be knowledgeable about such things? Please take into account in your explanation the three-month delay between the ‘error’ and the correction, and the fact that the correction only followed the public revelation that any such statement had to be completely and totally false. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/36 "2013-07-05T17:20:19Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’m going to go out on a limb and say Obama doesn’t really cares about what they think. And it doesn’t really matter, as long as they do what they’re told. So it’s not stupid. Arrogant, maybe, but you could say that about everything the U.S. does, so whatever. They didn’t get Snowden. So it was a blunder. A stupid one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/37 "2013-07-05T17:23:57Z")
“Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?” – _Catch-22,_ Joseph Heller ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/38 "2013-07-05T17:25:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Because those countries are not U.S. allies and would never have agreed unless the U.S. threatened to nuke them or cut off trade. This is some fascinating stuff. I’m going to have to assume a sense of humour beyond my ken. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/39 "2013-07-05T17:28:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Because those countries are not U.S. allies and would never have agreed unless the U.S. threatened to nuke them or cut off trade. This is some fascinating stuff. We are talking the plane of the head of a sovreign state. It’s not a minor thing the US asked for. I imagine that the compliance was voluntary, but surely Portugal, France and Austria knew that Bolivia was not likely to be happy about this. Sure, it’s a small South American country, but it was not a minor thing, and those European officials involved in what amounted to the interdiction of Morales’ plane have to be pretty damned stupid to think it was. As tagos said: [QUOTE=tagos] Great. The first time Airforce 1 is forced to land and searched at the behest of China we’ll all be a-okay with it. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726/40 "2013-07-05T17:37:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Evil Captor** : > > Sure, provide a list of other countries that have a strong interest in getting at Snowden, and who have the clout to make the Portuguese, the French and the Austrians actually obstruct the travels of the president of a sovriegn state over it. I’ll be patient. No problem. 1: Portugal 2: France 3: Austria Note: The above list may not be complete. Now, one might fairly ask _why_ these countries have an interest in getting Snowden. And the answer to that is obviously that the US wants him, the US is big and powerful, and everyone wants to be friends with the big powerful guy. So? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolivian-president-shakedown-us-descends-to-dubya-administration-levels-of-stupidity-arrogance/662726.md?page=3)