# Bolton to step down as UN ambassador **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814 "2006-12-04T15:52:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/21 "2006-12-05T10:24:21Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] An organisation in which gangster states make up 75% of its membership is not capable of achieving anything good. [/QUOTE] _75 percent??_ ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/22 "2006-12-05T10:32:01Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] _75 percent??_ [/QUOTE] About 192+ member states in the UN. How many of them have basic freedoms and fair elections where the losing party alliance/cabal/faction willingly surrenders power to the winning party/alliance/cabal/faction if the outcome of the election indicates that they should. I don’t believe the total would reach 47. _Targo_ ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/23 "2006-12-05T10:39:52Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] I don’t believe the total would reach 47. [/QUOTE] I’m not going to be the one to count which countries are okay and which aren’t; it’s your assertion. Anyway, you sure you want to stick to the “nothing good” part? Nothing the WHO or UNICEF does is good? The Kyoto Protocols are a bad thing? ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/24 "2006-12-05T11:18:30Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] The Kyoto Protocols are a bad thing? [/QUOTE] I never said that. The Kyoto protocols are too limited. They don’t go far enough to solve the problem of global warming. viz: [space.com](http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_ice-age_031208.html) > [@](#): > > There appears to be too much frozen water at low-latitude regions – away from the frigid poles – given the current climate of Mars. The situation is not in equilibrium, said William Feldman of the Los Alamos National Laboratory. > “One explanation could be that Mars is just coming out of an ice age,” Feldman said. “In some low-latitude areas, the ice has already dissipated. In others, that process is slower and hasn’t reached an equilibrium yet. Those areas are like the patches of snow you sometimes see persisting in protected spots long after the last snowfall of the winter.” > Frozen water makes up as much as 10 percent of the top 3 feet (1 meter) of surface material in some regions close to the equator. Dust deposits may be covering and insulating the lingering ice, Feldman said. More alarming news on global warming: [mos.org](http://www.mos.org/cst-archive/article/80/9.html) > [@](#): > > Global Warming on Mars? > A study of the ice caps on Mars may show that the red planet is experiencing a warming trend. > After decades of thinking that the ice caps on Mars were mostly carbon dioxide (dry ice), planetary geologists are starting to think that those caps may be mostly fresh water ice instead. > Caltech planetary scientists have been keeping a close eye on the dozens of deep, wide pits.in the southern martian ice caps. These pits have been growing larger every year, but they never get any deeper. > The scientists believe this means that there is a layer of dry ice that is evaporating off of a thicker layer of water ice. The yearly increases in evaporation may be caused by a global warming trend happening on Mars. > If both Mars and Earth are experiencing global warming, then perhaps there is a larger phenomenon going on in the Solar System that is causing their global climates to change. 😃 _Targo_ ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/25 "2006-12-05T13:45:23Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] An organisation in which gangster states make up 75% of its membership is not capable of achieving anything good. On that basis, and on the basis of its performance, the UN deserves zero respect. _Targo_ [/QUOte] Historically, gangster states have always been the norm. The United Nations has never been an elect group of angels. The idea has always been to get our thuggish co-world rulers together and hash things out instead of going to war and so forth. I guess what I’m saying is, I think your standards are a little high for, you know, existing in the world. While there are PLENTY of member states in the UN which deserve no respect whatsoever, the institution itself does deserve respect, and as has been pointed out, some of its agencies actually do good, against all the odds. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/26 "2006-12-05T13:55:15Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] An organisation in which gangster states make up 75% of its membership is not capable of achieving anything good. On that basis, and on the basis of its performance, the UN deserves zero respect. _Targo_ [/QUOTE] Does the definition of ‘gangster state’ include invading others on made up pretexts, fomenting coups, supporting bloody-handed dictatorships etc.? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/27 "2006-12-05T17:14:14Z")
“…Italy is a pimp, But I didn’t know until this day that it was Brazil all along…” “…I now it was you, France. You broke my heart, France! You broke my heart!..” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/28 "2006-12-05T17:27:50Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] About 192+ member states in the UN. How many of them have basic freedoms and fair elections where the losing party alliance/cabal/faction willingly surrenders power to the winning party/alliance/cabal/faction if the outcome of the election indicates that they should. I don’t believe the total would reach 47. _Targo_ [/QUOTE] I don’t think you understand the purpose of the UN. It is **not** to make each member nation a copy of the US and Great Britain - remember the Soviet Union was a founder. It is to provide some basic rules for the interaction of nations, and to provide a forum, with more teeth than the League of Nations, to prevent a breakdown like WW II. We’ve made it over 60 years without one, so I think the UN has succeeded in its basic objective quite well. The Bush diplomatic straregy of only talking to people we like isn’t working out so well, is it? As for global warming, the best is the enemy of the good. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/29 "2006-12-05T17:35:53Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] I never said that. The Kyoto protocols are too limited. They don’t go far enough to solve the problem of global warming. [/QUOTE] I agree they don’t go far enough; I agree with this country’s leadership that China needs to be included. Are you saying that small steps aren’t worth taking? I also get the sense my other suggestions didn’t merit comment. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/30 "2006-12-05T17:37:05Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] If both Mars and Earth are experiencing global warming, then perhaps there is a larger phenomenon going on in the Solar System that is causing their global climates to change. [/QUOTE] Hmm . . . Well, I’m sure the astronomers would have noticed if the sun were getting any warmer, and I can’t think what else it might be. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/31 "2006-12-05T19:11:07Z")
[_The Nation_](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20061218/williams) presents a short review of Bolton’s accomplishments, throughout his career. > [@](#): > > Bolton has clearly relished his role at the UN, and one nightmare scenario would be intense White House pressure on Ban to grant him a senior UN appointment. If that sounds farfetched, just consider the recent appointment of Bush supporter and former Washington Times editor Josette Sheeran Shiner as head of the World Food Program. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/32 "2006-12-05T19:18:57Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Hmm . . . Well, I’m sure the astronomers would have noticed if the sun were getting any warmer, and I can’t think what else it might be. [/QUOTE] Venera-forming, making the Earth more hospitable to our sulphur-based Insect Overlords… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/33 "2006-12-06T01:10:35Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] About 192+ member states in the UN. How many of them have basic freedoms and fair elections where the losing party alliance/cabal/faction willingly surrenders power to the winning party/alliance/cabal/faction if the outcome of the election indicates that they should. [/QUOTE] How many states meeting that description have existed in human history? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/34 "2006-12-06T01:21:03Z")
> [@Aquila Be](#): > > More alarming news on global warming: > > > [@mos.org](#): > > > > Global Warming on Mars? **Aquila Be** may be whooshing us, but in case not, I’ll just note quickly that the question of whether other planets in our solar system are warming has been discussed in recent threads, e.g. [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7877766&postcount=3) and [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=365383). ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/35 "2006-12-06T10:30:31Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Does the definition of ‘gangster state’ include invading others on made up pretexts, fomenting coups, supporting bloody-handed dictatorships etc.? [/QUOTE] Ignoring your rhetorical flourish on the Iraq imbroglio, it would be reasonable to define a gangster state as one that fails to conform to the standards of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights adopted by the United Nations in 1948. [Link](http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html) Among the few countries that voted against it were South Africa and Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, at the time of its founding, it was thought quite ok to admit gangster states to that organisation, to its ultimate detriment. _Targo_ ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/36 "2006-12-06T10:34:08Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] I don’t think you understand the purpose of the UN. It is **not** to make each member nation a copy of the US and Great Britain - remember the Soviet Union was a founder. It is to provide some basic rules for the interaction of nations, and to provide a forum, with more teeth than the League of Nations, to prevent a breakdown like WW II. We’ve made it over 60 years without one, so I think the UN has succeeded in its basic objective quite well. The Bush diplomatic straregy of only talking to people we like isn’t working out so well, is it? As for global warming, the best is the enemy of the good. [/QUOTE] What successes are you talking about? Genocides are being carried out to this day without much interference from that pathetic organisation. The UN has served to legitimise tyranny and corruption, even in its internal workings. The only people Bush doesn’t want to talk to are countries like North Korea, whose people are in an abysmal condition, Iran, whose leaders openly and frequently advocate genocide and Cuba, a country that might see a better future once that decrepit dictator, Castro, finally dies. That’s not to say that Bush has any moral sense. He is all too willing to consort with rulers of the most appalling regimes on Earth, like Arabia. If Earth is going through a period of global warming then it is highly unlikely that the activities of mankind have had any influence and I don’t care how loudly tabloid scientists like Al Gore try to convince me that they know what they’re talking about. Apart from the influence of the Malenkovich cycle, the sun is a variable star and small changes in its output can have large effects on Earth’s weather, as has been observed in a similar period of global warming currently taking place on Mars. [science.nasa](http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/17jan_solcon.htm) > [@](#): > > The intensity of the Sun varies along with the 11-year sunspot cycle. When sunspots are numerous the solar constant is high (about 1367 W/m2); when sunspots are scarce the value is low (about 1365 W/m2). Eleven years isn’t the only “beat,” however. The solar constant can fluctuate by ~0.1% over days and weeks as sunspots grow and dissipate. The solar constant also drifts by 0.2% to 0.6% over many centuries, according to scientists who study tree rings. > These small changes can affect Earth in a big way. For example, between 1645 and 1715 (a period astronomers call the “Maunder Minimum”) the sunspot cycle stopped; the face of the Sun was nearly blank for 70 years. At the same time Europe was hit by an extraordinary cold spell: the Thames River in London froze, glaciers advanced in the Alps, and northern sea ice increased. An earlier centuries-long surge in solar activity (inferred from studies of tree rings) had the opposite effect: Vikings were able to settle the thawed-out coast of Greenland in the 980s, and even grow enough wheat there to export the surplus to Scandinavia. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/37 "2006-12-06T10:41:02Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] I agree they don’t go far enough; I agree with this country’s leadership that China needs to be included. Are you saying that small steps aren’t worth taking? I also get the sense my other suggestions didn’t merit comment. [/QUOTE] China, India and Brazil and a whole basket of other countries would need to be included, assuming you believe complying with the Kyoto protocol will actually have an impact on that impossible to assess influence on global warming that human activities might have on climate. From page 10 of a recent speech by Nigel Lawson who criticised the Kyoto protocol on a number of grounds [LINK](http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:jHIYzf8kK4YJ:www.cps.org.uk/cpsfile.asp%3Fid%3D641+nigel+lawson+speech&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=1) > [@](#): > > China alone last year embarked on a programme of building 562 large coal- > fired power stations by 2012 – that is, a new coal-fired power station every five > days for seven years. Putting it another way, China is adding the equivalent of > Britain’s entire power-generating capacity each year. Since coal-fired power > stations emit roughly twice as much carbon dioxide per gigawatt of electricity as > gas-fired ones, it is not surprising that it is generally accepted that within the > next 20 years China will overtake the United States as the largest source of > emissions. India, which like China has substantial indigenous coal reserves, is set > to follow a similar path, as is Brazil. As for me, I detest pollution on health, efficiency and moral grounds. I don’t need to believe a load of lies about global warming before taking action against it. At present, nuclear power looks the best and most manageable way to go. As for the WHO, a mostly useful organisation such as that does not need a crazy parliament with a majority of criminal states, like the UN, to justify its existence. _Targo_ ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/38 "2006-12-06T10:42:52Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Hmm . . . Well, I’m sure the astronomers would have noticed if the sun were getting any warmer, and I can’t think what else it might be. [/QUOTE] See post #36. _Targo_ ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814/39 "2006-12-06T13:54:30Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] Ignoring your rhetorical flourish on the Iraq imbroglio, it would be reasonable to define a gangster state as one that fails to conform to the standards of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights adopted by the United Nations in 1948. [Link](http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html) Among the few countries that voted against it were South Africa and Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, at the time of its founding, it was thought quite ok to admit gangster states to that organisation, to its ultimate detriment. _Targo_ [/QUOTE] So the USA is a gangster state then, even by your self-serving definition. Glad we agree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bolton-to-step-down-as-un-ambassador/382814.md?page=1)