# "Bomb Factory" house too dangerous to clear -- will be burned down **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 6, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160 "2010-12-06T16:43:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/61 "2010-12-09T21:48:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes, there is; you’ve never heard of asset forfeiture laws? I have. Butthey are not simply a “rule” about “property used in the (even suspected) commission of a crime.” Asset forfeiture (criminal and civil) applies in specific instances, under specific circumstances, for specific crimes. There is no blanket law that allows for seizing of all property involved in the commission of any crime. I was not denying the existence of asset forfeiture laws; i was simply pointing out that such a blanket statement is both incorrect and effectively useless in this case, unless you know whether this particular offense is covered under those laws. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/62 "2010-12-09T22:01:23Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > I can imagine the neighbours having a barbecue on a weekend evening when a grenade lands on the lawn, fizzles, cracks and marshmallows spring out like confetti. > There’s a one second pause to formulate a collective mental WTF? among the present when Mr. Jakubec’s kitchen blows up in the background. Where’s Gary Larson when we need him? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/63 "2010-12-09T22:56:22Z")
> **[The San Diego Union-Tribune - San Diego, California & National News](https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/)** > > News about San Diego, California Some more background articles, and a video of the burn. (no audio) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/64 "2010-12-09T23:27:47Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I have. > > Butthey are not simply a “rule” about “property used in the (even suspected) commission of a crime.” Asset forfeiture (criminal and civil) applies in specific instances, under specific circumstances, for specific crimes. There is no blanket law that allows for seizing of all property involved in the commission of any crime. Since when? I’ve heard any number of complaints about how the police can grab anything that has the slightest, most indirect connection to even an alleged crime. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/65 "2010-12-09T23:52:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Since when? I’ve heard any number of complaints about how the police can grab anything that has the slightest, most indirect connection to even an alleged crime. Well, that convinces me then. If you’ve “heard any number of complaints,” it must be true that asset forfeiture applies universally, and will apply in this particular case. ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/66 "2010-12-10T02:18:25Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, that convinces me then. If you’ve “heard any number of complaints,” it must be true that asset forfeiture applies universally, and will apply in this particular case. I think there might be some confusion between forfeiting assets and seizing evidence. The two aren’t the same, I don’t think. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/67 "2010-12-10T03:17:54Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, that convinces me then. If you’ve “heard any number of complaints,” it must be true that asset forfeiture applies universally, and will apply in this particular case. Skepticism works both ways. Why should I believe you over everything else I’ve ever heard? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/68 "2010-12-10T03:31:23Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Butthey are not simply a “rule” about “property used in the (even suspected) commission of a crime.” Asset forfeiture (criminal and civil) applies in specific instances, under specific circumstances, for specific crimes. There is no blanket law that allows for seizing of all property involved in the commission of any crime. From a [web site I respect more with each passing day](http://www.cracked.com/article_18620_6-completely-legal-ways-cops-can-screw-you.html): > [@](#): > > It’s called civil asset forfeiture. You probably already have heard of something like this, where the police get to seize the car and house of some drug kingpin and stick the money in the department’s budget (that’s criminal forfeiture). > > But then there’s this loophole where the police can seize anything they suspect has been used in a crime, even if it doesn’t belong to the criminal, and even if there hasn’t been a conviction. > > Then if you, as the actual owner of the goods, try to challenge it, the burden of proof is on you to prove you didn’t know it was going to be used in a crime. That’s civil forfeiture. > > For the police, there is no legal requirement to prove “beyond reasonable doubt” that, say, your TV set was once used by a ring of Dutch pedophiles to view kiddie porn. They can simply take it, without ever giving it back, even if they never formally charge anyone for a crime . . . > > Because civil forfeitures are so simple, over 40 percent of police executives admitted their budgets depend on cash from them. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/69 "2010-12-10T07:37:02Z")
As i made clear, i’m well aware of civil asset forfeiture. I’m also aware, for that matter, that asset forfeiture is too often used by law enforcement agencies as a revenue-raising exercise that targets people who, in many cases, are not even charged with a crime. Civil asset forfeiture, as practised in the United States, is an absolute disgrace at both federal and state level, and needs to be radically overhauled. But we also need to distinguish between jurisdictions, and the particular case we’re talking about here happens to be in California. **Koxinga** ’s quote includes an assertion that: > [@](#): > > Then if you, as the actual owner of the goods, try to challenge it, the burden of proof is on you to prove you didn’t know it was going to be used in a crime. That’s civil forfeiture. > > For the police, there is no legal requirement to prove “beyond reasonable doubt” that, say, your TV set was once used by a ring of Dutch pedophiles to view kiddie porn. They can simply take it, without ever giving it back, even if they never formally charge anyone for a crime . . . This quote does indeed apply in many jurisdictions, but the case that we’re discussing, the burning house, is in California. California has, according to [this 2010 report](http://www.ij.org/images/pdf_folder/other_pubs/assetforfeituretoemail.pdf) (PDF) on asset forfeiture in the United States, a standard in civil forfeiture that requires evidence to be “Clear and convincing and beyond a reasonable doubt.” As noted on page 22 of the report, California is among the four best states in the nation, in terms of the burden of proof that must be met by law enforcement in order to undertake civil forfeiture. The report also notes: > [@](#): > > Compared to most other states, **California’s forfeiture laws** provide better protections > to property owners and do not provide as strong of a profit incentive to law enforce- > ment to take property. For the government to forfeit property in California, it must > have, at a minimum, clear and convincing evidence for cash associated with criminal > activity and **requires a beyond a reasonable doubt standard for forfeiting real prop- > erty **. Furthermore,** when an innocent person with an interest in the property seeks to > protect that interest, the burden is on the government to show that the owner knew > about the property’s illegal use**. > > p. 49 Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/70 "2010-12-10T07:50:55Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Asset forfeiture (criminal and civil) applies in specific instances, under specific circumstances, for specific crimes. So, you forgot to append “in California.” Gotcha. Even so, that hardly warrants you getting all sniffy and dismissive that any such thing could ever occur: apparently, in most of the country it does indeed occur with alarming regularity. [Furthermore](http://www.economist.com/node/16219747?story_id=16219747): > [@](#): > > Even in states where local rules make civil asset forfeiture hard, police can get around that problem by calling in the feds. After a joint operation by state and federal authorities, the proceeds are split. This is called “equitable sharing”. Police respond to these incentives exactly as you would expect them to. Where state law makes it tricky for them to seize property and hang on to it, they seize significantly more via “equitable sharing”, according to Marian Williams and Jeff Holcomb of Appalachian State University and Tomislav Kovandzic of the University of Texas, Dallas. Total federal seizures have exploded from $400m in 2001 to $1.3 billion in 2008. State data are patchier, but the trend appears to be sharply upward. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/71 "2010-12-10T07:59:23Z")
Aaand guess what? Looking at the OP’s link again, since the resident was indeed served with a _federal_ indictment, I’m guessing there’s a good chance that this could have been a joint fed & state operation. Ketchup for your crow, Mr. mhendo? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/72 "2010-12-10T08:05:16Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > So, you forgot to append “in California.” Gotcha. Even so, that hardly warrants you getting all sniffy and dismissive that any such thing could ever occur: apparently, in most of the country it does indeed occur with alarming regularity. I never suggested that such a thing could never occur. The main point of my “sniffiness,” as you put it, was to highlight the fact that vague speculative claims like “Isn’t there a rule…” are rather pointless when it comes to discussing legal issues. And it’s still the case that there are certain restrictions on asset forfeiture, even in federal cases. So no, sorry, no crow for me, thanks. And, as i suggested, i was never questioning the existence of asset forfeiture. I was even aware of the possibility that it might apply in this particular case. It was simply your broad, imprecise, vague and all-encompassing statement that i was hoping to highlight with my initial answer. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/73 "2010-12-10T08:15:00Z")
Ah. Well, you put me in my place, you did indeed. Good show, old man. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/74 "2010-12-10T08:20:50Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Ah. Well, you put me in my place, you did indeed. Good show, old man. Glad you recognize it. Maybe you’ll do better next time. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/75 "2010-12-10T08:44:21Z")
Now that we’ve settled that, let’s all watch the video of the house burning! Oooooooooooohhh Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhh Burn baby burn… 'XPLOSIVES INFERNO!" ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/76 "2010-12-10T16:44:41Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Burn baby burn… 'XPLOSIVES INFERNO!" I left for work early yesterday morning so that i’d be off the I-15 before the burn began. As it turned out, i could have left at the normal time, because weather conditions (an inversion layer) caused them to push it back by more than an hour. Anyway, on the way to work all the local radio stations were making jokes about it, and playing songs like Disco Inferno and Burning Down the House, and Burnin’ for You. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/77 "2010-12-10T18:11:35Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Anyway, on the way to work all the local radio stations were making jokes about it, and playing songs like Disco Inferno and Burning Down the House, and Burnin’ for You. Just so long as no one played “Fire with Fire” by Kansas, because there’s no reason to play that song ever, for any reason whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/78 "2010-12-11T03:15:31Z")
> [@GESancMan](#): > > “Where’s the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!” Jamie want big boom! ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160/79 "2010-12-12T00:24:49Z")
Sorry I got here late. I’m at predeployment training down in Florida, and am heading out the door to Afghanistan here shortly. Looking at the pictures in this thread (specifically **Koxinga** ’s post], this guy’s place was far, far better maintained than most HME “labs” out in the desert. But, I see the police were very careful to not release pictures of the precursors/ingredients. I see possible, _possible_ hints, but nothing concrete. Anyway, looks like from the thread that all went up in controlled smoke–good. ETA: I’ve had to do similar burns before with excess “expired” ammunition. Mortar propellant, black powder, etc. As mentioned before, because it’s uncontained, it burns readily and quickly–but doesn’t _explode_. Tripler Gotta run–shared computer an’ my time’s up. Will check back later. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bomb-factory-house-too-dangerous-to-clear-will-be-burned-down/563160.md?page=3)