# Bonesman (R) vs. Bonesman (D) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2004, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810 "2004-02-12T07:50:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/1 "2004-02-12T07:50:42Z")
Barrring any major upsets in the Democratic nomination process, it looks like this election is going to come down to Bush vs. Kerry. Rich, white, male, Yalie-and-Bonesman ® and rich, white, male, Yalie-and-Bonesman (D). I predict this will call some new public attention to the nature of the American class system. To start with, the Skull & Bones organization will come under a microscope as it never has before in its long history. Things might expand from there, as Skull & Bones is a distinctly upper-class organization, and its existence reminds us of a fact we usually prefer to ignore: that America has an upper class which is for most purposes its ruling class. If Americans ever start to really think about that, as a political issue, things will start to change. Your thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/2 "2004-02-12T13:22:46Z")
I am hoping this topic comes up at one of the presidential debates. Then we can watch as both Bush and Kerry leave the room, [as required by tradition](http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/intro1.htm) whenever the words “Skull & Bones” are mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/3 "2004-02-12T13:33:29Z")
Last election had the same thing (2 rich white male Ivy Leaguers), and it didn’t call attention to the class system. Wait? What class system? Hands on ears: Na na na na na na na na na na na. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/4 "2004-02-12T13:36:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > To start with, the Skull & Bones organization will come under a microscope as it never has before in its long history. Yes, we all want to hear lurid stories of drunken frat boys chanting nonsense in phony rituals. > [@](#): > > America has an upper class which is for most purposes its ruling class. If Americans ever start to really think about that, as a political issue, things will start to change. Why isn’t it an issue in parts of Europe where politicians are drawn from more narrow backgrounds? Sorry, don’t meen to harsh on your _Waiting for Godot_ Marxism, but the revolution ain’t coming today. (It will surely come, though, so keep waiting.) ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/5 "2004-02-12T13:45:09Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > I am hoping this topic comes up at one of the presidential debates. Then we can watch as both Bush and Kerry leave the room, [as required by tradition](http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/intro1.htm) whenever the words “Skull & Bones” are mentioned. It’s all paranoid BS, if you ask me. The Illuminati connection pretty much clinches that. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/6 "2004-02-12T14:00:11Z")
You mean Presidents and politicians generally come from upper-class backgrounds? Holy shit, that had never occurred to me. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. > [@](#): > > Rich, white, male, Yalie-and-Bonesman ® and rich, white, male, Yalie-and-Bonesman (D). The only unusual thing here is that they both went to Yale. The rest are standard for Presidential candidates and hardly rare in politics. Nobody cared in 2000, when the contest was Harvard vs. Yale. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/7 "2004-02-12T14:54:02Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > I am hoping this topic comes up at one of the presidential debates. Then we can watch as both Bush and Kerry leave the room, [as required by tradition](http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/intro1.htm) whenever the words “Skull & Bones” are mentioned. The footnotes to **FI** ’s cite: > [@](#): > > 1. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 5 (1986). > 2. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 5 (1986). > 3. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 213 (1986). > 4. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 186 (1986). > 5. Walter Isaacson and Evan Thomas, The Wise Men 82 (1986). > 6. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 186 (1986). > 7. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 80 (1986). > 8. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 185 (1986). > 9. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 185 (1986). > 10. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 185 (1986). > 11. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 188 (1986). > 12. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 188 (1986). > 13. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 186 (1986). > 14. John George and Laird Wilcox, American Extremists 81 (1996). > 15. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 189 (1986). > 16. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 80 (1986). > 17. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 77 (1986) (emphasis added). > 18. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 80 (1986) (emphasis added). > 19. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 212 (1986) (emphasis added). > 20. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 212 (1986). > 21. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 212 (1986). > 22. Antony C. Sutton, America’s Secret Establishment 214 (1986). > 23. David Armstrong, “Preemptive Journalism,” 12 Texas Observer (November 29, 1991). intro1.htm Damn fine research, that is. May we take it that [http://www.biblebelievers.org.au](http://www.biblebelievers.org.au) is a credible source in your eyes? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/8 "2004-02-12T15:00:14Z")
Are you saying that the information is incorrect? I’ve seen that in numerous other places. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/9 "2004-02-12T17:02:02Z")
> [@furt](#): > > The footnotes to **FI** ’s cite: > Damn fine research, that is. > > May we take it that [http://www.biblebelievers.org.au](http://www.biblebelievers.org.au) is a credible source in your eyes? Take your pick: [139 cites on Google](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22skull+and+bones%22+%22leave+the+room%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&filter=0) Tell us which ones you deem to be credible, won’tcha? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/10 "2004-02-12T19:50:07Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Tell us which ones you deem to be credible, won’tcha? Ummm, no; see how it works is that when _you_ make the claim, _you_ provide a credible source. You (IMO) failed to do so and I pointed it out. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/11 "2004-02-14T15:39:33Z")
Yes, yes, of course the presidential election is always between two rich white guys – but they are not always of upper-class birth. Clinton wasn’t. Neither was Reagan, Carter, Nixon, Johnson, Truman . . . I really think it does make a difference, to have two WASP mandarins in the same race; and the fact that both belong to the same elite club just adds emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/12 "2004-02-14T15:58:01Z")
I’d like to nominate this thread in the category “Thread name that most sounds like the title of a gay porn movie.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/13 "2004-02-14T16:14:38Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Why isn’t it an issue in parts of Europe where politicians are drawn from more narrow backgrounds? But it IS an issue in Europe! The undeniable existence of a ruling class in most European countries is one of the factors that keeps socialist politics alive there, to a degree inconceivable in the U.S. (I’m not a Marxist, by the way; a democratic socialist, yes, but not a Marxist.) ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/14 "2004-02-14T16:43:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But it IS an issue in Europe! The undeniable existence of a ruling class in most European countries is one of the factors that keeps socialist politics alive there, to a degree inconceivable in the U.S. So if a generation of socialist politics has left them with even more of a class system than we have, we’re supposed to emulate them? You seem to operate under the assumption that socialist politics will lessen the power of any “ruling class;” I see no evidence for that. If the US is _closer_ to being a classless society than most of Europe is, could it not be _because_ we refuse to think in terms of “ruling class” and to see everything through the lens of class conflict? Is it perfect? No. But 6 of the last 10 presidents were from middle-class or lower backgrounds, and I can live with that, and so can most Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/15 "2004-02-14T21:38:26Z")
A much more balanced article on the Skull and Bones and George W. from the Atlantic Monthly: [http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/05/robbins.htm](http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/05/robbins.htm) ---
**Author:** ![akrako1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@akrako1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akrako1)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/16 "2004-02-17T21:06:02Z")
The OP asks about thoughts about 2 bonesmen running for President. All your replies seem to ignore the question. Two candidates, running for the same office, BOTH comitted to a secret organization that we are not allowed to know about. Does their allegence to the Skull and Bones superceed their oath to the nation? We don’t know. They won’t let us know. Hence ‘secret’. Personally, I don’t think any politician, especially should hold any membership secret. What if he held a secret membership in the NRA? Wouldn’t you want to know? Now, what if he holds a secret membership to a secret organization, that we aren’t permitted to know about??? Does that sound scarry at all? Let’s see some of the wonderful stuff that Skull and Bones members have implemented: Averell & Mary Harriman created the Eugenics movement in America. Yay! Mass sterilizations of the poor and racially undesirable. Executions of the insane, criminal, and terminally ill. Fun stuff. Continuing their racist eugenics - Harriman and Prescott Bush directly supported the Nazi’s. Another yay for the Bonesmen. This one you can take Cecil’s word for: [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030214.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030214.html) Unfortunately, Cecil ‘forgot’ to mention the Skull and Bones connection between the two. It is well documented if anyone needs cites. So you still don’t have any problem choosing between two Bonesmen? If Kerry does get elected, the face of the government will change (can’t be as obviously biased against environmentalism, for example), but the same rotten core will stay in place. The world domination, wars, loss of rights, and militarism WILL NOT STOP. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/17 "2004-02-17T22:29:11Z")
Wait, two members of an organization whose membership has likely exceeded two thousand- have been unsavory individuals? What evidence is there that Bush or Kerry are likely to implement eugenics, anyway? Or do something so unsavory as to support a monster tantamount to Hitler? Unless we have inklings of something to that degree, your conclusions, I’m afraid, are irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/18 "2004-02-17T22:43:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, yes, of course the presidential election is always between two rich white guys – but they are not always of upper-class birth. Clinton wasn’t. Neither was Reagan, Carter, Nixon, Johnson, Truman . . . I really think it does make a difference, to have two WASP mandarins in the same race; and the fact that both belong to the same elite club just adds emphasis. Maybe that’s why your concern will not be shared by many Americans-- it’s actually a rare occurance in recent history. Everyone knows it takes money to get into presidential politics. The fact that so few recent contenders were born rich is kind of surprising-- one would think it would be more common. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/19 "2004-02-17T23:00:55Z")
> [@akrako1](#): > > Continuing their racist eugenics - Harriman and Prescott Bush directly supported the Nazi’s. Another yay for the Bonesmen. This one you can take Cecil’s word for: Horseshit. Did you actually READ what Cecil wrote?? From Was President Bush’s great-grandfather a Nazi? > [@Cecil Adams](#): > > Prescott’s involvement with Nazi finance is more complicated. Though Thyssen had been an ardent backer of the Nazis in the early days, he broke with them in 1938 after the Kristallnacht pogrom against the Jews. He fled to Switzerland the following year, and Hitler confiscated his fortune and stripped him of his citizenship. In I Paid Hitler Thyssen confessed his role in financing the Nazis and denounced the Führer. Arrested in Vichy France, he spent the balance of the war as an Axis prisoner. Prescott Bush, for his part, owned a single share of stock (of 4,000) in UBC, the Thyssen bank. According to a 2001 Boston Globe piece, the New York Herald Tribune ran a story in July 1942 headlined “Hitler’s Angel Has 3 Million in US Bank,” in which Prescott and other BBH partners “explain[ed] to government regulators that their position [as directors of UBC] was merely an unpaid courtesy for a client.” > > So, did Bush and his firm finance the Nazis and enable Germany to rearm? Indirectly, yes. But they had a lot of company. Some of the most distinguished names in American business had investments or subsidiaries in prewar Germany, including Standard Oil and General Motors. Critics have argued for years that without U.S. money, the Nazis could never have waged war. But American business has always invested in totalitarian regimes–witness our dealings with mainland China. > > Loftus tells me there’s more to it than that. He says that the value of German industrial assets in which Bush and friends invested increased during World War II, in part due to slave labor, and that Bush benefited from this increase when the assets were returned–supposedly he got $1.5 million when UBC was liquidated in 1951. I’ll buy the claim that Bush got his share of UBC back–it was an American bank, after all–but the idea that his German holdings increased in value despite being obliterated by Allied bombs is ridiculous. Seems pretty fucking tenuous to me. Sure, bring out your clear cites…they might be good for a laugh. -XT ---
**Author:** ![akrako1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@akrako1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akrako1)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2004, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810/20 "2004-02-18T21:46:42Z")
[http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user\_action=detail&catalogno=NN\_Bush\_Nazi\_2](http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=NN_Bush_Nazi_2) [http://www.guerrillanews.com/corporate\_crime/doc3469.html](http://www.guerrillanews.com/corporate_crime/doc3469.html) [http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/randy/swas5.htm](http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/randy/swas5.htm) Care to see the original, vintage article aboue the seizure? [http://www.infowars.com/print\_prescott.htm](http://www.infowars.com/print_prescott.htm) When I first read these reports I couldn’t understand why these folks would support Hitler, especially AFTER Pearl Harbor. When I finally found out that Harriman was in Skull & Bones with Bush, it all fit together. The Eugenics program that came out of Skull & Bones, that was Hitler’s model, all add to the same cohesive picture. Obviously, Skull & Bones has sinister motives that we are unaware of. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonesman-r-vs-bonesman-d/228810.md?page=2)