# Bonuses For AIG **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 15, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541 "2009-03-15T18:11:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/261 "2009-03-18T18:34:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The source of the bonus may be a “windfall.” The desire to take them away is a punishmnet. But doesn’t punishment have to be punishment for a crime? Since they are accused of no crime, how can this be considered punishment? IANAL, so I am just asking questions. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/262 "2009-03-18T18:34:19Z")
OK, some of them have offered to give part or all of the bonuses back. Let’s assume for a moment that they do so. Bonuses are taxed, right? If the bonus was given then returned, are they still on the hook for the tax on it? Or how would that work? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/263 "2009-03-18T18:37:12Z")
I would guess if they didn’t keep the bonus, the IRS can’t say it’s income, so they can’t be taxed on it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/264 "2009-03-18T18:44:29Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > But doesn’t punishment have to be punishment for a crime? Since they are accused of no crime, how can this be considered punishment?.. Punishment? Heavens, no! These fellows have simply come to realize, to their dismay, that they have inadvertently received more compensation that was their due. Kind of thing could happen to anybody, especially someone whose math skills are weak, and not sophisticated in the ways of finance. Really, just an honest blunder, you know, “mistakes were made”. I’m sure they are eager to get themselves in correct alignment, especially if we will put away the pliers and blowtorches… ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/265 "2009-03-18T19:05:20Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m not entirely sure how valid the distinction is, because it seems that what we’ve seen is that many of these large companies are operated such that their primary goal is not to create anything of longlasting value, but to instead provide the greatest income to certain interested parties - shareholders/owners, employees, affiliates, etc. - in the short run. This is exactly what I was commenting on: [Quote=Scylla] I’m in the financial industry. My company received Tarp dollars. I received a retention bonus. Some of the stupid things my company did impeded my ability to earn money. [/quote] > [@Bo](#): > > Weird. > > I don’t ever think about my livelihood this way, I don’t think. I’m more concerned with being able to do my job. And my job isn’t earning money. I perform a service for people, and they pay me for that service. But my ability isn’t “to earn money”, it’s “to perform a service”. Earning money isn’t an ability. It’s a result. The attitude that a person’s job is “to make money” is so wrong I’m not sure I could list everything incorrect about it. It’s the attitude of thieves & gamblers, and it’s the attitude that many people in the so-called “financial industry” have, ISTM. Thieves don’t add value, they subtract it. Gamblers don’t make money, they lose it. And like a junkie, they will say and do whatever they think is necessary to get another fix. I know I left whores out of my metaphors, but that’s because a whore actually does perform a service for her customers. ---
**Author:** ![Vimp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vimp/32/4186_2.png) [@Vimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vimp)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/266 "2009-03-18T19:17:31Z")
It is being reported today in the local rag (San Jose Mercury News, lead story), that the so-called “retention bonuses” are in fact really compensation/salary equivalents. > [@](#): > > The employees took salaries of $1 in exchange for receiving the bonuses, which were supposed to keep them from leaving AIG, according to Cuomo’s letter. That, he suggests, undercut’s AIG’s claims that it could not renegotiate the bonus contracts agreed to in early 2008, and that the payments were “retention” bonuses. I don’t know that renegotiating something that is essentially a “salary” is a good idea, but I really don’t think that the idea of basing a financial employee’s total compensation on how well they can game the market using derivatives and other esoteric gambling tools is good for the company involved. ---
**Author:** ![Vimp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vimp/32/4186_2.png) [@Vimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vimp)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/267 "2009-03-18T19:27:18Z")
Oh, the article goes on > [@](#): > > A spokeswoman for AIG … says it was common knowledge that AIG was eliminating jobs in that division as part of its revamping, including jobs “that are, at the moment, ciritcal to maintaining ongoing operations and winding down certain businesses.” Exactly what are these people being “retained” for? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/268 "2009-03-18T20:00:07Z")
> [@KatiRoo](#): > > I don’t know that renegotiating something that is essentially a “salary” is a good idea… If it quacks “essentially” like a duck, then it ain’t a duck unless the guy complaining has the bucks to hire a better lawyer than you can. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/269 "2009-03-18T20:02:15Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] If it quacks “essentially” like a duck, then it ain’t a duck unless the guy complaining has the bucks to hire a better lawyer than you can. [/QUOTE] So…if it quacks like a duck you need to have several male deer in order to hire a vulture? Essentially? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/270 "2009-03-18T20:08:01Z")
As usual, you got it in one, **XT**! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/271 "2009-03-18T20:37:54Z")
As usual? As Inigo Montoya would say, I dinna thin’ that word means what you thin’ it means… -XT ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/272 "2009-03-18T21:13:32Z")
They could just take the phrase our illustrious leader used when he signed the pork laden budget bill after making a campaign promise of “no earmarks!” _It’s last year’s business._ ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/273 "2009-03-18T21:49:00Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > our illustrious leader … after making a campaign promise of “no earmarks!” The guy who made that promise _lost_. Our illustrious leader is the _other_ one. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/274 "2009-03-18T21:56:37Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > But doesn’t punishment have to be punishment for a crime? Since they are accused of no crime, how can this be considered punishment? > > IANAL, so I am just asking questions. No. We learn this from US v. Brown, where at issue was a law making anyone who had been a member of the Communist Party ineligible to hold a position on a union board. The Court said: > [@](#): > > …Chief Justice Marshall, speaking for the Court … stated that “[a] bill of attainder may affect the life of an individual, or may confiscate his property, or may do both.” … The Court’s pronouncement therefore served notice that the Bill of Attainder Clause was not to be given a narrow historical reading … but was instead to be read in light of the evil the Framers had sought to bar: legislative punishment, of any form or severity, of specifically designated persons or groups. > . > . > . > …legislative acts, no matter what their form, that apply either to named individuals or to easily ascertainable members of a group in such a way as to inflict punishment on them without a judicial trial are bills of attainder prohibited by the Constitution. > . > . > . > In United States v. Lovett, 328 U.S. 303, the Court invalidated section 304 of the Urgent Deficiency Appropriation Act, which prohibited payment of further salary to three named federal employees, as a bill of attainder. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/275 "2009-03-18T23:05:07Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Earning money isn’t an ability. It’s a result. In my job it’s a hard won ability that came from working fifteen hour days for ten years in order to acquire the expertise and experience to do it well. Working with financial instruments my job is literally to make money. > [@](#): > > The attitude that a person’s job is “to make money” is so wrong I’m not sure I could list everything incorrect about it. It’s the attitude of thieves & gamblers, and it’s the attitude that many people in the so-called “financial industry” have, ISTM. I see. Are you a volunteer, or a hypocrite? > [@](#): > > Thieves don’t add value, they subtract it. Gamblers don’t make money, they lose it. And like a junkie, they will say and do whatever they think is necessary to get another fix. I’m neither. Which are you? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/276 "2009-03-18T23:32:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > …standing by the freeway entrance in impeccable three-piece suits, with signs that read “Will Offer Very Bad Advice for Food”… Asshole. You stole my new business idea. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/277 "2009-03-18T23:34:23Z")
This Liddy guy seems balanced and straightforward. [Liddy’sOp-Ed](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/business/19web-aig.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss) I’m not happy about the giving back half, but what can be done without dismantling whole systems of law and established procedure? I feel better knowing that some of these bastards have either refused the bonuses or opted to return all of it. Perhaps there is honor among thieves. For all here who don’t get the anger re this tiny amount of money (and given all else that is going on, this is somewhat small potatoes), I ask you to think on the response of the French people upon hearing Marie Antoinette say “let [the peasants] eat cake.”\* It’s the salt in the wound; the last straw, the tipping point. That said, the death threats etc are insane and waaay over the top. We are a strange people. And now Freddie Mac is revealing their “bonuses”. Oh, to be a financial executive, now that spring is here… \*I know she may well have never said that, but work with me here. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/278 "2009-03-18T23:43:17Z")
I missed the edit window. **Scylla-** -IMO, what is being Pitted is the attitude toward making money. We all know we have to make money to survive. But if that is the sole goal, disregarding the focus or the intent (mission) of the company, there’s a problem. I am not saying you are one of these, but there are many people (and many of them are financial executives) who want to use their company or bank or financial institution as a sort of cash cow and then move on to well, greener pastures. The quick profit, the annual bonus and then hopscotch over to another firm etc–it happens. It’s bad for business long term, but can be very lucrative short term. Just a general remark. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/279 "2009-03-19T00:59:58Z")
Thank you **eleanorigby**. I couldn’t figure out how to say that as well as you did. I wasn’t trying to pick on you, **Scylla**. Just your (perhaps unfortunate) choice of words brought some thoughts out. I’ll assume that you (like me, like most people) are trying to perform a service for your clients, beyond “get me as much money as you can, no matter the method”… ok? But many in your industry are thieves, and gamblers, and junkies (addicted to greed). That’s why we are where we are now. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/280 "2009-03-19T01:03:36Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Thank you **eleanorigby**. I couldn’t figure out how to say that as well as you did. You’re welcome. 🙂 I thought I understood the source of your frustration and anger. I guess I was right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541.md?page=15)