# Bonuses For AIG **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 15, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541 "2009-03-15T18:11:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/461 "2009-03-22T20:09:27Z")
That’s what happens in bankruptcy, **Sam**. Contracts get cancelled or revised by the court or its appointee, with no recourse by the creditors, who consider themselves lucky to get anything. You really need to go learn about the process. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/462 "2009-03-22T20:19:59Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I will not be held hostage by the AIG “laborers” who run the company into the ground, and then threaten to leave before cleaning up their mess unless we meet their extortion demands. Rather than try to pass a tax bill, I would support issuing a subpoena to the CEO for the names of those who took the bonuses, and inform them that if the don’t give it back, those names will be made public, and leave it to their imagination which outcome is more palatable. That is how you deal with extortionists. That’s just stupid, quite frankly. You need to actually do some reading into what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/463 "2009-03-22T20:21:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Actually, I’ve got a better example of extortion. That would be, “We’re not going to pay you what we agreed on, and if you don’t like it, we’ll turn your names over to this angry mob.” Actually I would give them a choice: sign a waiver on that contract, or have your name exposed. Nice and legal. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/464 "2009-03-22T20:29:17Z")
Gee, **Sam** , do you really think they permit lynch mobs to roam through gated communities? I mean, you’re milking this whole “mob” thing for everything its worth, and then some. And, yeah, there may be come injustice involved in this, people who make a quarter million dollars a year won’t get bonuses in excess of that. Does that income level qualify for food stamps in Canada? My heart bleeds for the poor and the miserable, **Sam**. Perhaps it is my failing, but I haven’t enough compassion to spare for the discomfited and the put-out. You pull down a quarter million a year, mean ol’ ' **luc** is gonna say: _mazel tov_, good luck, adios. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/465 "2009-03-22T20:44:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Actually I would give them a choice: sign a waiver on that contract, or have your name exposed. Nice and legal. Sign a contract under threat of violence? Nice and legal? I suppose since it’s government doing the threatening they can get away with it. But what you describe is the very definition of extortion. **ElvisL1ves** : Thank you very much, but I know exactly what bankruptcy entails. The thing is, bankruptcy is a legal process with known procedures and penalties, and established ways of resolving conflict. All players in the market understand it. This current no-holds-barred, make up the rules as you go along farce that the Congress is engaging in is a completely different thing. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/466 "2009-03-22T20:52:48Z")
No, you still don’t get it. Everything that has happened to AIG, and its people at all levels, under the bailout system, everything, is superior by far to what would have happened to it under bankruptcy. Pause there and reflect a moment. Now: Therefore, they have reason only for relief and gratitude for their reprieve, and none at all for whining that they didn’t get even more. Does it begin to dawn on you yet? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/467 "2009-03-22T21:03:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Gee, **Sam** , do you really think they permit lynch mobs to roam through gated communities? I mean, you’re milking this whole “mob” thing for everything its worth, and then some. -I- am milking it? I’m not the one threatening to use mob violence as an arm of government policy. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/468 "2009-03-22T21:06:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > But what you describe is the very definition of extortion. Gee, ya think?? Could be worse. If they had the fear of a Soweto Necklace, maybe they would think twice about screwing the country in their pursuit of the almighty profit. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/469 "2009-03-22T21:19:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Gee, ya think?? > > Could be worse. If they had the fear of a Soweto Necklace, maybe they would think twice about screwing the country in their pursuit of the almighty profit. I think I’ve had quite enough of this discussion. Your brand of hatred is a little too vile for me to stomach, even in a pit discussion. (for those who don’t know, a ‘Soweto Necklace’ refers to the practice of tying a victim’s hands behind his back (or just chopping them off), then putting a gasoline-soaked tire over the victims head and lighting it, burning the person to death from the neck up) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/470 "2009-03-22T22:40:49Z")
If the masked figure of the Scarlet Pumpernickel shall be seen dashing into Greenwhich, Conn. to rescue yuppes from howling mobs of enraged _lumpenprole_, I shall have my suspicions as to his true identity! But my lips are sealed! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/471 "2009-03-23T00:09:17Z")
Many union workers have had their wages and benefits slashed. They had contracts but the union buckled to national pressure. Many retirees have lost or had slashed contracted health care benefits. Many factory workers are doing the same jobs they did before for half the money and fewer benefits. I hope the public pressure makes the financial money gobblers cave. ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/472 "2009-03-23T00:52:01Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That’s what happens in bankruptcy, **Sam**. Contracts get cancelled or revised by the court or its appointee, with no recourse by the creditors, who consider themselves lucky to get anything. > > You really need to go learn about the process. The American government decided (unwisely) to buy AIG, not to let them go bankrupt. They bought the company. Telling us what happens in bankruptcy is irrelevant. If you wanted AIG to follow the rules of bankruptcy we probably should have let that happen. If these bonuses were so repulsive then the Obama administration and Congress should have taken steps to negotiate the terms of their financial assistance before bailing them out. I think the one thing everyone assumes, that I don’t quite buy, is that AIG had a special responsibility not to screw up in the first place. Imagine people working at General Millls to produce the next breakfast cereal to hit store shelves. After years of work and millions of dollars they come out with “Choclatey Ass Flakes”. They taste exactly as good as their name and the cereal bombs. No one cares whether the cereal people suck at their job. No one cares if they get a bonus. Companies will always seek profits. If you expect them to act as humanitarians, or against what they percieve as their own interests you will be repeatedly dissapointed. If one company is so important that bad decisions can cause an economic collapse then it is either up to the free market to deal with the consequences, or the government to effectively regulate the actions of that company. Telling them they shouldn’t screw up is just pissing in the wind. **Fear Itself** - I found your comment to be disgusting and I thank the God I may believe in some day that you are not in a position of any responsibility in this world. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/473 "2009-03-23T03:11:57Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] I think I’ve had quite enough of this discussion. Your brand of hatred is a little too vile for me to stomach, even in a pit discussion. [/QUOTE] This crisis (and this thread in particular) has been an eye opener about my perceptions of the posters on this board. That an unrepentant socialist like 'luci thinks as he does is certainly no shocker. It’s 'luci after all. But some of the other folks on this board I THOUGHT were rational, or at least intelligent. After seeing some of the ignorance based invective and epic BS swallowing and knee jerking going on here by the non-gonzomax contingent I have to say that, perhaps I’ve been over rating the IQ levels around here. Significantly. -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/474 "2009-03-23T03:31:55Z")
Knowing I fail to win your approval makes my steps heavy with regret. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/475 "2009-03-23T04:40:18Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I will not be held hostage by the AIG “laborers” who run the company into the ground, and then threaten to leave before cleaning up their mess unless we meet their extortion demands. Y’know, other side here is making the assertion that the people who stayed to “clean up the mess” are NOT the people who are responsible for the mess existing in the first place. Your argument _seems_ to contradict this assertion (actually, it rests on an assumption that the assertion is false), but you never explicitly come out and deny the assertion. This leaves me wondering if you are even aware that the assertion has been made. I would appreciate it if you would acknowledge the assertion having been made, and either refute it, or accept it, and make an argument that the payments are unjust even if they are going to people whose only association with the problem is that they were tasked with mitigating it.\* > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Rather than try to pass a tax bill, I would support issuing a subpoena to the CEO for the names of those who took the bonuses, and inform them that if the don’t give it back, those names will be made public, and leave it to their imagination which outcome is more palatable. That is how you deal with extortionists. This is unworthy of an American, and I won’t even bother talking about the lynching method you allluded to below this post. \*I acknowledge the existence of an unecxluded middle. Feel free to mention it, and work it into your argument. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/476 "2009-03-23T06:03:29Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **Fear Itself** > > Rather than try to pass a tax bill, I would support issuing a subpoena to the CEO for the names of those who took the bonuses, and inform them that if the don’t give it back, those names will be made public, and leave it to their imagination which outcome is more palatable. That is how you deal with extortionists. > > This is unworthy of an American, and I won’t even bother talking about the lynching method you allluded to below this post. Allow me to expand that: it is unworthy of a civilized human being. From a fellow member of the American Left, I find it to be unconscionable and embarrassing. ETA: For members who wish to defend the assertion that the perpetrators of the mess are in any degree distinct from the people tasked with “cleaning it up”, I’d appreciate some cites to back up the assertion. Thanking everyone in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/477 "2009-03-23T07:30:39Z")
In the other thread, I linked to quotes from AIG people who said that almost none of the people getting bonuses were involved in the original problems with the financial products division. In [this article](http://seekingalpha.com/article/127207-new-information-emerges-about-the-aig-bonuses), it says that the financial products division, which was the unit of AIG that caused all the problems, only had 438 employees. AIG has70,000 employees, and it had been reported that 2,000 to 7,000 of them got the bonuses. However, just tonight I found this [Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE52K1FS20090321?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0) report that says that 400 people in Financial Products got bonuses - mostly traders. Presumably the people who were involved in the initial products. It does say 2008 bonuses, so it’s possible it’s talking about last year, but it could be this year as well, depending on how you define them. So it appears we still don’t fully know who exactly got the bonuses and how many of them were responsible for the original mess. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/478 "2009-03-23T10:25:10Z")
let’s stop with the lunch mob/law of the jungle please. comgress passing a special tax law is sufficient. m’kay? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/479 "2009-03-23T13:43:08Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Knowing I fail to win your approval makes my steps heavy with regret. [/QUOTE] Oh, never fear 'luci…you have fully met my every expectation. Hopefully that will put the spring back in your step. -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541/480 "2009-03-23T14:18:30Z")
[JPMorgan Chase To Spend Millions on New Jets and Luxury Airport Hangar - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=7146474&page=1) Why is it that some of us think they do not get it? Is it that JP Morgan was bailed out and is now buying more corporate jets and spending 18 mill on a fancy hangar. Please XT explain how wrong we are again. These corporate thieves are merely reaping the fruits of their labor. Just getting by . Spending the peoples money like it is theirs, with no respect for where it came from. They all have to go. Now would be a good time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonuses-for-aig/489541.md?page=25)