Oh, not at all. I was just swinging slightly wildly as there was some criticism of books that I’m over-precious about in my fanboyness. Your OP is perfectly reasonable and discussion-provoking, imho.
btw, I haven’t read the first book in the new “Final” trilogy in the Covenant series. I picked it up at a bookstore and read the first page and thought it sounded like schlock. So, who knows, if I go back and re-read them now (which I probably will, now, after this discussion) I’ll ended up disliking them and crying for my lost youth.
Stick the name in front of “Skywalker” and see if it works. Think how much more stupid Star Wars would have been if Vader had said, “Kevin…I am your father.”
“No, no, no. D’you know who I am?”
“That’s Jeff Vader, that is.”
“I am not Jeff Vader, I am Darth Vader.”
“What, Jeff Vader runs the Deathstar?”
“No, Jeff… No, I run the Deathstar.”
“You Jeff Vader?”
“No, I’m Darth Vader!”
“Are you his brother? Can you get his autograph?”
“I can’t get it… No, I’m… All right, I’m Jeff Vader! I’m Jeff Vader!”
“Can I have your autograph?”
“No, fuck off, or I’ll kill you with a tray!”
That makes perfect sense. Did Hile Troy mention that, maybe? It sounds like something he’d come up with. I don’t want to slog through The Illearth War to try to find it, but I bet I do.
I just re-read all 6 books a few months ago, but I’m starting LFB again, just because of this thread (it was that or When Eight Bells Toll by MacLean)
As primitive as it was in places, Lord Fouls Bane is still my favorite.
I might as well throw this out now <ahem> My name is Bobo, and I don’t like Tolkien.
There, I said it. Those movies were ok, but the books bored me. So, imho, Donaldson is the better author.
Kevin Landwaster was, what, the second or third generation in descent from Berek Halfhand? (Berek Halfhand - Lorec Vilesomethingorother - Kevin Landwaster?). His geneology was mentioned several times throughout the first trilogy, so he’s definately not from Covenant’s world.
Berek Halfhand, though, just seems to pop up from nowhere, and since Covenant is mistaken for the second coming of Berek, is a much better candidate for having come from Covenant’s world. It’s probably not too unlikely that Berek is a name in some “real-world” culture.
Of course, it’s not too implausible that Trell, Atirian, Lena, etc. could be “real-world” names. Though apparently not “real-world” names of a culture that your average reader regards as inappropriate for fantasy.
BTW, Jeff Skywalker having a name derived from “peace of God” is absolutely no more or less silly than Luke Skywalker having a name swiped from an Apostle.
Knew a girl named Lena once… Russian, maybe German. Berek is a sweater company it appears.
Berek - Damelon Giantfriend- Loric Vilesilencer- Kevin. Each lived for several hundred years, Kevin for a thousand.
I forgot that they were father-son rather than successive High Lords. Bummer, that would have been cool.
Whoah, whoah, whoah!! Back up a second there, big fella! I like Covenant plenty. Yeah, he may not be the most pleasant character I’ve ever read about - especially in the first couple of books - but there’s more than one way to like someone. I mean, I wouldn’t want to hang out with him at a party, but I wish I was half the person he was.
Obviously, I see where you’re coming from with this question - the guy commits the most horriffic act of violence, he’s belligerent to everyone who tries to help him, and things get a little oogy when he goes for a skinny dip with his daughter. But this is part of a redemptive arc in which he changes profoundly for the better. When we first meet him, he is a victim; superficially unpleasant, but very easy to sympathise with. He has contracted a horrible disease, his wife has left him, his neighbours try to kill him, and everyone he knows shuns him. Every good thing in his life has turned to ash. Who wouldn’t become a little unpleasant? From here he is placed in a situation where the most incredible demands are made of him - incredible for anyone, let alone someone who has become so crippled by disease and rejection and loneliness as Covenant has. And this crippling is, to some extent, self-imposed, and absolutely necessary for his continued survival. Yet, somehow, he comes to feel a deep love for the Land and its people, and for them he undertakes extraordinary tasks, in a way that avoids every trap that has been set up for him, eventually making the ultimate sacrifice for them. Really, what’s not to love?
The thing about Covenant is that, although for much of Lord Foul’s Bane and The Illearth War you want to give him good slapping, he turns out to be completely right. It’s really frustrating to watch him avoiding action and responsibility at every opportunity in those two books, but ultimately, every choice he makes turns out to be the right one. He has a much better understanding of power and its consequences than those who try to use it in the Land’s defense - notably Hile Troy and Elena, whose attempts to use whatever power they can get their hands on (consequences be damned) end in disaster. Only Mhoram seems to have as good an understanding - what a wonderful moment it is when he allows Covenant to return to his own world to save the one little girl who has just been bitten by the snake, rather than compelling him to return to the Land to save them all.
Me, I would have tried to be just like Hile Troy, and ended up as a tree. (If I was lucky!! Probably just a shrub.) What a great device this character was - he was doing everything we wanted Covenamt to do - and through his eyes we were allowed a voice for our judgements against him - and he came so close to ruining it all. If the Forestall hadn’t turned up to save his lilly-white arse at the last second, the Land would have been screwed.
:eek: Are you kidding me?
As to the point of making such an initially unlikeable man as the protagonist, well, I think its obviously so that we get the redemptive arc that we do. After he commits the rape, and during much of the first book at least, he seems like someone who is completely unredeemable - which makes him the perfect candidate for that kind of story. Doesn’t that make the journey something worth reading about? It’s easy to read about the redemption of someone who’s a bit of a scallywag, but essentially good at heart (an obvious example from film that springs to mind is Han Solo), but to take someone who commits the unforgivable act of rape and watch him change in to someone who can become the saviour of the Land is a wonderful experience.
The other thing about making the character so unlikeable initially is that Donaldson sets up the possibility that Covenenant could easily fail. He could credibly become the servant of the Despiser at many points in the story, were he to make slightly different choices. In fact it seems so unlikely that he could be any kind of hero that you wonder how he (and Donaldson) are ever going to be able to pull it off.
I find this such a bizarre question that I barely know how to answer it. It’s like asking of Lord of the Rings, “How effective is the device of having the ring be an evil talisman that must be destroyed. How does its seductive influence play into this?” It’s not some tacked-on element - that IS the story. It’s what the entire structure (at least of the first trilogy) is based around!
But, I’ll give it a go… I do think its an intruiging aspect of the story, and explored in many fascinating ways. Covenant’s leprosy, and his Unbelief, is completely central to understanding his character and his journey in the First Chronicles (the importance becomes somewhat less central in the Second Chronicles, but that is directly because of the nature of the answers that Covenant finds to these questions). So much tension is created between what we want Covenant to be able to do to save the Land, and what we are forced to understand he must do to save himself. The initial chapters of Lord Foul’s Bane, in the sequence in the Leprosarium, show us in detail what faces Covenant if he give in to his desire to be free of the disease, to give up the rigidity and control he is forced to exert every moment of his life (as exemplified by the VSE). God, what a horrible situation to be faced with… to be offered everything that you’ve always wanted - life, health, love - but to believe that to accept it, give in to it, will be giving in to a future of rotting flesh and madness. Its a testament to Covenant that he is able to find the answers he does, and watching his work his way towards those answers - his increasingly desperate “bargains” (covenants) with himself - are fascinating to watch, as well as providing the narrative impetus and structure for the story.
If you haven’t guessed by now, I think the answer to the second question is a big fat Yes. As to the first part, I do think there is an element of Donaldson using many of the conventions of the genre (as typified by LOTR) against both the reader and against Covenant. I mean, there’s something kind of funny about the fact that the most miserable man in the world - a man who can never allow himself to believe in a fantasy - is taken into a fantasy world specifically designed to piss him off. Just look at some of those names you mention below, they’d piss anybody off. He’s confronted by a creature named “Drool Rockworm”, a servant of “Lord Foul”, for god’s sake! I’d be like, “You have GOT to be kidding me”, and this is coming from someone who enjoyed The Belgariad. No wonder he’s unpleasant. And from there he is taken to a castle, meets a load of magicians, and then taken on a Quest (spelled with a self-important capital letter). The poor guy is trapped in The Sword of Shannara and can’t get out!
I agree “Drool” is pretty naff, but I love the giants’ names. And there are some gorgeous names in the series as well - Kiril Threndor, Berek Halfhand, Doriendor Corishev, and everyobody’s favourite Sandgorgon, Nom.
And I’m not getting the hate for “Kevin”. It’s two fairly straightforward syllables stuck together. I don’t see it as much different from Berek, or Sunder. It doesn’t seem unreasonable that some names in a fantasy land would coincide with names in our world. Maybe it would be easier to think of it as “KEE-vin”, and not that nitwit with the boogers who pulled your hair in the third grade.
I found the first novel, Lord Foul’s Bane, very hard to get into. The opening chapters were fascinating, but once the rape occurred I didn’t know what to do. I was expecting to have Covenant in the traditional role of loveable hero, and clearly that wasn’t going to happen. The rest of the book didn’t really inspire me, and it was only because I had already purchased The Illearth War and was a poor starving uni student and couldn’t afford to waste that money that I kept on going. Well, I fell in love with Covenant, his quandry, the Land and Donaldson while reading it, and tore straight through all six books. And recently I was overjoyed to discover the first book of “The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant”, The Runes of the Earth.
Even upon re-reading the first two trilogies (in preparation for the Last Chronicles), I found that Lord Foul’s Bane was less enjoyable than the other books. There is a serious lack of action, the language was more awkward, and most of all, Covenant seems more opaque. I found it difficult to understand and empathise with him during this novel - particularly around the issue of Lena’s rape and Convenants seeming lack of reaction to it. I do think Donaldson must have learned from his experience and the writing of everything after the first book I found to be wonderful.
Donaldson’s stengths, I would say, are his ability to vividly evoke the worlds he creates (I mean, I don’t think there’s any place I’ve ever felt so much love for as The Land), his obvious enjoyment of language, his wonderful, careful labarynthine plotting (especially in the Second Chronicles and later works), his respect for his characters, the fact that every character journey is so intense and every redemption so thoroughly earned.
I think its pretty safe to assume that Donaldson understodd the significance of those names when he chose them for the Ravers. Remember that those are the names that the Ravers gave themselves - and apparently, they seem to think they are the bees knees. Obviously, they’ve got tickets on themselves just a little.
And probably quite a few other dodgy things he does too. What I was referring to are the moral choices he makes, and the concerns that he has about weilding the power that everyone wants him to use, which ultimately prove to be completely justified and incredibly important.
Are y’all aware that there’s a third series (book one is finished) in the works?
As for the covenant series, I enjoyed it but felt it was very dry. I usually read writers who insert at least some tiniest bit of humour into their works, any kind at all, but it seems the Land is a place without humor.
It didn’t seem a safe assumption for me. It’s been a long time since I read them, but I remember being puzzled at the time that the text itself seemed to give no hint as to the significance of the use of these terms. It didn’t even seem to recognize that these terms have a meaning outside of the context of the books themselves.
But, so far as I remember, there was no indication of why they might have chosen these particular names. Why would Fleshharrower call himself moksha, which is the state of release from the cycle of rebirth? Yes, you might come up with a hypothesis, but I don’t think that Donaldson himself offers one. That’s what makes it seem disjointed and arbitrary.
:eek: My goodness. I think you’re the first person I’ve ever heard in a discussion of the Covenant books who liked the first chapters of Lord Foul’s Bane. I usually recommend that new readers skim through them, then come back later to re-read if the book interests them.
I found them interesting on *re-*reading the chapters – but only once I had the context of Covenant to regard them in.
Didn’t the Ravers have quite a few other names they referred to themselves by? I seem to recall that’s where I first read up on Sheol (wondering why a Raver was named that)…
I picked up the first three book after work last night (I am an impulse reader) and re-reading them, found the first couple of chapters great in setting up the danger of TC’s condition and his mental state, not to mention his relationship with horses and his wedding ring. I imagine a lot of that goes over the head of the first-time reader (especially if they’re 15, like I was when I first read the books) but it’s all important and does the job of setting up the character.
Has anyone plotted out the scale of the Land, maybe based on the time it takes to travel to various places? In the second series it sounds like The Land is this tiny little place hanging out in the middle of nowhere. The map isn’t much help, no scale…
I imagine it to be like a Europe… Well, Northern Europe (and facing the other direction), because you remember there are the Southron Wastes to the south.
Maybe I’ll keep notes this time through the series and see if I can come up with something (unless someone else can save me the trouble)
I used to own Karen Wynn Fonstad’s The Atlas of the Land, which, as all of Fonstad’s amazing work does, had detailed maps of just about everything, including the wider world that was introduced in the Second Chronicles. The book’s long gone, now, unfortunately (and, on Googling to see if I had the author right, I found out that so is Fonstad. She died last year of complications from breast cancer. :()
I just finished the intro (he’s popping into Kiril Threndor right now) and I have to agree that Tom’s time in the leprosarium is vital - I noticed a lot of foreshadowing in the flashback that I probably skipped over the first couple of times I read it. Like muzzynyc I was mid-teens the first time through (I might still have a first-edition White Gold Wielder somewhere) and tended to ignore the first chapters.
I’ve heard criticism of the series because Thomas seems to effortlessly trot the length and breadth of the Land without much effort, but LFB points out that he spends most of his time hiking Haven Farm - he has no job, he’s not writing yet, he’s coming to terms with his life by keeping himself on the verge of exhaustion by walking all the time.
<cue Dory singing> “Just keep swimming just keep swimming just keep swimming”
The guy has to be in fairly good shape, gaunt tho he may be. jayjay, thank you! I’ve got a line on a used copy from Amazon.
And because layoffs are coming at any time, I’ve been thinking way too much about anything but work, leading to over-posting in several threads.
But, to the point -
Why, I ask myself and all of you as well, WHY would the cover of the current Amazon available mass-market paperbacks (herehere and here) have a GOLD ring on the cover? WTF?! That’s like putting a ruby necklace on the covers of LotR.
I just have to say that those are some horrible covers. They look like cheesy romance novels.
I guess I’m going to have to give the series another try. I’ve gotten about 50 pages in twice and stopped both times. This thread is making me want to try it again though. We’ll see how it goes this time.